Given some of the recent discussions I thought it was best to bring
back one of the all-time best discussions on SDAnet--the question 
of chewing gum in church.  The debate tactics are the same as some
recently used but the subject matter more clearly shows them 
for what they are.  And, yes, the first few messages in this thread
are *dead serious*.


Message-Id: <8f9age_00YUo9QkUkg@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed,  9 Dec 1992 16:54:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Steven Timm 
To: +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr4/st0o/sdanet.dl@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Chew Gum (Chiclets) in the Church...



Hi Steven (& all Other SDANet's)

First, lets introduce myself. My name is Ademir P. Soares, I am a SDA active
member.
I'd like to get some "Feed-back" from all u people in this above matter. And
I want to use  the same letter to ask your opinion in the following:

     1) Is the Salvation of Anyone in jeopardy if they chew gum in the church?
        If so why then they never tell people when they get baptized?

     2) Is this a sign of Disrrespect i.e. irreverence to GOD ? If yes, explain
        to me, please...

     3) Can an Officer from the Church been rebuken because he/her is chewing
        gum?

     5) What about if the person/s who did rebuken that Church officer have
        for habit to be (frequently) late for The Sabbath School and from time
        to time bring all their "Vegetariam Arsenal" to be prepared in the
        basement of the church while the sermon is in its way at Church's nave?

     5) Are there some doctrinal matter that I do NOT know in which we SDA
        should get more involved in this kind of "stupid point" while the
        entire world is fallen apart... while the SDA membership  start to get
        old.... while your youth is quitting or not going to the church at all?
        Are we practicing the "proverbs: DO what I say don't do what I do? or..
        Be reasonable, do things my way???

     6) My main concern is: IF those people where spending a litle more time
        reading the BIBLE, then they wont have no time to wast in this kind of
        "minor" problem, while the "majors pass by UNOTICIABLE!.

        Thanks for u all in advance for your attention in this matter.
        Your friend in Jesus,

        Ademir Soares                            Opaps@nasagiss      12/09/92


Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1992 11:47:22 -0500 (EST)
From: Steven Timm 
To: +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr4/st0o/sdanet.dl@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Chewing gum: the question is the answer
Cc: 

The question "Does chewing gum have anything to do with one's salvation?"
is misplaced at best.  Contained within it is that only matters which have 
to do with salvation are important to Christianity, and that if it 
doesn't affect one's salvation, then it must be OK.

Let me remind you that there will most likely be mass murderers, rapists,
forgers, and whatever else in heaven.  We could go so far to say that
even if you do any of these activities, it has nothing to do with your
salvation--all that matters is that if you ask Christ to forgive you and 
save you, He will.  But we do not use this rationale to go out and 
commit mass murder.

The question "What's wrong with...?" is always rhetorical and always
expects the answer "Nothing."  Only when veterans of the church answer
that question for people do we get into trouble.

If we are worried more about God catching us for something we do than
what the actual effect of that action is on ourselves and others, then 
we have a problem.  If we envisage God as an enabling co-dependent,
forgiving us so we can go out and sin no more, then we have a problem.
If you are more concerned about God zapping you with a thunderbolt
for chewing gum than you are about the tooth decay it will cause,
I feel sorry for you.

Steve Timm


From: ruben@ee.uts.edu.au (Ruben Gonzalez)
Message-Id: <9212110210.AA15000@europa.ee.uts.edu.au>
To: st0o+@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: Chew Gum (Chiclets) in the Church...


Hi all,

Ademir Soares writes :

>    1) Is the Salvation of Anyone in jeopardy if they chew gum in the church?
>    If so why then they never tell people when they get baptized?
>    2) Is this a sign of Disrrespect i.e. irreverence to GOD ? If yes, explain
>    to me, please...

Well lets just see, if you had to go to court and were facing a murder
charge would you chew gum to the judges face ? Would this be a sign of 
disrespect ?

How different then is this to standing before the presence of the omnipotent
God and supreme judge of all the earth and chewing gum in His face ?

> 
>      3) Can an Officer from the Church been rebuken because he/her is chewing
>         gum?
> 

Do you mean officially ?

>    4) What about if the person/s who did rebuken that Church officer have
>    for habit to be (frequently) late for The Sabbath School and from time
>    to time bring all their "Vegetariam Arsenal" to be prepared in the
>    basement of the church while the sermon is in its way at Church's nave?

As much as we like to say that It doesn't matter what so and so says because
he/she does such and such. That is just an excuse it doesn't matter if the 
worst criminal in the world came and told you something was wrong. It's still
your obligation to consider their testimony carefully. Did not God in the 
OT sometimes use gentiles to rebuke his own servants ? (Jonah story etc)

Should God's servants have ignored or rejected to rebuke because they
weren't Israelites ? 

> 
>   5) Are there some doctrinal matter that I do NOT know in which we SDA
>     should get more involved in this kind of "stupid point" while the
>     entire world is fallen apart... while the SDA membership  start to get
>     old.... while your youth is quitting or not going to the church at all?
>     Are we practicing the "proverbs: DO what I say don't do what I do? or..
>     Be reasonable, do things my way???
> 

Well the attitutes reflect the state of consecration and dedication to God.
Instead of attacking the symptoms, why not attempt to cure the disease.
It's not that the superficial things should be excused, but maybe we need to
look a little deeper and longer at ourselves to see if we ourselves are
not "double minded" with respect to the things of God. I think the 
consel in James 4:7-10 might be applicable to each of us.

>    6) My main concern is: IF those people where spending a litle more time
>    reading the BIBLE, then they wont have no time to wast in this kind of
>    "minor" problem, while the "majors pass by UNOTICIABLE!.
> 

Yes I would agree but you know that he that is faithful in the little things...
I think it all goes together both the little and the big things, the little
things just show us that something is wrong deep down, the change must be 
affected were the wrong is. Giving an asprin to someone with a heat attack
might relieve the pain but I don't think it will do them much good in the long 
run.

Kind Regards
Ruben



Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 18:57:54 +0800
From: med10014@nusunix3.nus.sg (TANG BENG YONG)
Message-Id: <9212111057.AA00197@nusunix3.nus.sg>
To: +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr4/st0o/sdanet.dl@andrew.cmu.edu,
        st0o+@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re:  Chew Gum (Chiclets) in the Church...

Hello Ademir,
	I live in a country where it is illegal to sell chewing gum, they made
that law earlier this year. As such, I suppose we in Singapore will be unlikely
to be faced with the questions you are.
	The salvation of a person is not put in jeopardy by chewing gum per se,
And if you do not chew gum in order to show disrespect for God, I don't think
that God will take offense at it. However, it seems to me that some people in
your church feel that it shows disrespect. I guess it is a matter of culture.
Doing certain things may be acceptable or seen as normal by some people but
for others, these things have other meanings and may be seen as being ill
mannered actions. Eg: some tribes of people feel that it is OK to go around
practically naked, whilst in other cultures, this is socially unacceptable.
	SInce there are some people in your church who feel that it is not
showing respect to God to chew gum in church, I would advice you not to chew
gum during the service. You can always chew it some other time.
	I suggest you read Romans 14, where Paul was talking about such matters
as eating meat (probably because it had been offered to idols, there was a
difference of opinion as to whether it was right for Christians to eat it),
observing festivals and other things. Briefly, what Paul says, i thnk, is that
Christians should not judge people and make a fuss over trivialities and that
if anything upsets other Christians, don't do it, even if you feel it is alright to do so.
	It is true that sometimes in the church, people can get very worked up
over unimportant things and this distracts us from the work and Mission of the 
Church and does nothing to improove the spirit of Christian love and unity that
one would expect to find amongst God's people. This problem is a widespread one.Well, i don't know how to deal with it, except that you just have to pray a lot,
be tolerant, and get on with being a Christian and doing God's work. By your
words and actions, show others what Christianity is all about and how Christians
should behave. Above all, we are commanded to love one another and even to love
our enemies, and if we as a church show more of this spirit, there would be
much less arguments, but even if there are, we should not allow this to affect
the carrying out of God's will and work. Just pray and trust God.
	God bless,
		Beng Tang, Singapore.
Message-Id: 
From: cheryl berthelsen  
To:  
Subject: Chewing gum may be important to the chewer
Date: Friday, December 11, 1992 9:57AM

Just to offer another view of this issue.  Perhaps there is reason a person
might chew gum in church (or anywhere else for that matter) which is of
therapeutic or comfort value.  For example, people who are trying to quit
smoking frequently chew gum to deal with the nicotine urge.  Would it be
wrong or showing disrespect for such a person to chew gum so that he/she
can sit through a worship service more comfortable?  No.  In fact, I think
it tunnel vision for anyone to assume that chewing gum is WRONG even if it
affends others because there may be a very logical and legitimate reason
that person is chewing gum.  Another example:  there are many medications
that people might have to take that makes their mouths intolerably dry or
leaves a bad taste in the person's mouth.  The antibiotic I'm taking right
now leaves a bad metallic taste in my mouth.  Rather than suffer with this,
the obvious thing to do is to chew gum or suck a lifesaver candy.

As soon church members start pointing fingers, rebuking people for doing
things that they themselves wouldn't do (whether there's a good reason or
not), they are judging others.  There is absolutely no justification for
making these kinds of trivial judgments.  It doesn't enhance spiritual
growth and may even offend so that those being offended leave the church.

Cheryl

Message-Id: 
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 13:49:03 -0500 (EST)
From: Steven Timm 
To: +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr4/st0o/sdanet.dl@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Gum chewing

It's almost frightening to see the vigor with which the gum-chewing
discussion has been carried out.  I was going to post a gum-in-cheek
article about why gum-chewing is a violation against the Lord, only 
to have several people present the arguments I was going to use
in all seriousness of argument.  I'm going to post it anyway, just because
we need to learn to laugh at and with ourselves again.  If you are
unable to see humor in the gum discussion, I feel sorry for you.  Since
I'm not
near my library, I can't have as many EGW quotes as originally planned,
but I'll do one better and use unnamed and uncited references to what I know
must be in there somewhere.  Clearly my method of interpretation is faulty,
but I'd like to know where, because it's not all that different from 
thoughtlines heard daily on SDAnet.

So I present:  GUM CHEWING:  A violation against the LORD

When we consider the early history of chewing gum, we find that one 
of the first companies to make it was the Beech-nut company.  Not
coincidentally, this company was and is a large producer of chewing 
tobacco.  So we see that from its earliest days, chewing gum was offered
as a substitute for tobacco, but in fact the effect is to make chewing
tobacco seem more acceptable to young people.  This is still illustrated
today by 
brands such as "Big League Chew" a gum which has the consistency and
shape of chewing tobacco so that youngsters can emulate the
tobacco-chewing of their 
favorite baseball stars.  We can also point to the current marketing 
strategy of Wrigley's Spearmint gum as a device to get through periods 
when smoking is not prohibited.  So we see the place gum holds in the 
modern world today as a tobacco surrogate.

Anything that promises this much fun must be bad for you, and in truth
it is.  Gum is one of the leading contributors to tooth decay and gum
disease.  It also stimulates addiction by conditioning the chewer to be 
constantly in need of oral stimulation.  Nicotine gum is just the last step
in the decadence which starts with the supposedly harmless "sugarless"
gum, and leads from there to ordinary chewing gum, bubble gum, and finally
nicotine gum.  Until now we have not mentioned the choking hazard that gum
poses to small children, or the hazard of self-suffocation by blowing a
bubble which is too big.

Surely something this dangerous would be banned by God Almighty.  Indeed
it is.  There was no chewing gum in the Bible, but we read the story of
Daniel
praying three times a day, morning, noon, and night.  Since he gave thanks
for all food he received, and he is not recorded as giving thanks any
other time, it follows that he never chewed gum--in fact, never ate
anything between meals.  Ellen G. White says that "not a morsel of food
should pass your lips between meals" and since gum does have calories
this certainly counts as food.  Of course we must remember the texts in
1st Corinthians
which tell us to "glorify God in your body" and "whether therefore ye
eat or drink...do all to the glory of God."

It has been the traditional Adventist position to ban gum-chewing.  To
this day Adventist academies have strict rules against gum-chewing in
whatever situation, not only in church.  It's well known that P.K.
Wrigley, founder
of Wrigley's, inc. was a devout Catholic.  It's clear that those who would
chew gum anywhere (let alone in church) are engaging in this Jesuit plot
to undercut our health message and our traditional Adventist doctrine.
You can help!  Send your subscription to _Our Firm Gumline_, Eatonville WA.


[If I convinced anybody with this, I am truly scared.  Since I'm in the 
People's Republic of Berkeley, political correctness dictates that I 
present the opposite view, which I will shortly do.  SCT]



Message-Id: 
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 14:18:59 -0500 (EST)
From: Steven Timm 
To: +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr4/st0o/sdanet.dl@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Gum-chewing rights in the SDA church


[Again, as Paul said, I speak as a fool-- SCT]

The SDA church has long been against the right to chew gum in church.
This has exacted a horrible emotional toll on its members who have an
orientation to chew gum.  Insensitive people feel that gum-chewing is a
voluntary act performed for pleasure.  They do not realize that when the
right to gum-chew openly is denied, people go underground (as many in 
SDA academies already have) and add shame, danger, and extra cost to the
process which should be their right to perform.

Some so-called progressives call gum-chewing a disease and say that its
chewers should be treated with compassion, and maybe they will come to
recovery.  We gum-chewers see no need to "recover" from a lifestyle that
we enjoy and believe is perfectly normal.  To stop chewing gum in church
or anywhere else would be an essential denial of who we are.  There have
been posts on this net that say people should be sensitive to those who
chew gum out of necessity.  This only serves to deepen the unwarranted
distinction between the "worthy" gum chewers and the "unworthy" gum
chewers.  To condemn gum because some gum-chewers also chew tobacco is a
tired expression of guilt-by-association.

We demand a new curriculum in the SDA schools which celebrates all
diversity including that of gum-chewers, and promotes gum-chewing as a
healthy lifestyle.  We encourage "safe chewing" by promoting sugarless
gum.  We demand that gum-chewers no longer be ejected from church.  And
we invite you
to our special gum-chewing party at the gum-chewers camp meeting next summer.
For more requests write to GUMSHOE, Berkeley, CA.

Steve Timm