>From sdanet  Mon Mar 20 18:16:09 1995
>From: Bille Burdick 
>Subject: Re: The Albany revival
>To: sdanet@jill.sdanet.org
>Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 16:34:51 -0500 (EST)
In-Reply->To: <199503191527.KAA03378@jill.sdanet.org> from "Steve Timm" at Mar \
19, 95 11:27:06 am
MIME-Version: 1.0
>Sender: sdanet

Steve,

Thank you for posting this information.  I hope you will continue to update
us as you learn more precisely just what has occured.  I have feared for
some time that some of our people would become involved in this movement.
Since last fall, when the subject was first mentioned on net, I have done
a lot of reading on the subject, and I will share some of what I have
learned.

As usual, I stress the importance of us knowing the vocabulary being used,
and especially that we learn the difference in the way SDA's usually define
the terms and the way they are being defined by those in the "Renewal
Movement" themselves."

Under a different heading, I will post an article by a Christian researcher
which will give details on just what the movement is and who are its main
promoters.  In this post, I will deal more with introductory information,
relating it to your post about Albany.  Some excerpts from your post to set
the context....

> It was pointed out that Dr. Giller (and some other members of our church)
> have attended meetings held by Benny Hinn, who is well known for his
> sermons on "the anointing" and the many healings which are said to take
> place during his crusades. . . . .  It was also pointed out that
> Dr. Giller and some of our members have visited the Toronto Vineyard
> Christian Fellowship, (which was recently profiled on ABC News and is
> well known throughout the charismatic community as the place where the
> renewal movement started which has now swept through most Vineyard
> churches, bringing "holy laughter" and other dubious gifts such as
> "howling".

Benny Hinn is representative of a number of TV Evangelists, and a number of
denominations which have been around for some time who are classed together
under the group label, "Word-Faith Movement".  These are the "name it and
claim it" folk.  They actually approach Christian Scientists in their
teaching about health and sickness....including their attitude of believing
in the face of "negative witness"....in common terms, claim that you are
healed even if your physical symptoms indicate otherwise.  These groups are
causing a great deal of concern in the moderate Evangelical communities...
not only because their doctrines are so far from scripture truth, but
because of the numbers of people who have died as a result of "claiming
their healing" rather than seeking medical help.

The Renewal Movement is also called "The Third Wave of the Spirit" and
takes in a slightly different (and much broader) scope of Evangelical
churches.  It moves beyond the conventional manifestations of healing and
tongues that have been popular previous to this and adds a number of
physical manifestations not unlike some from historical pentecostal and
pietistic churches (slain in the spirit, for example)...but moves beyond
that to manifestations more expected in heathen, Hindu, or occult societies
than in Christian churches.

> The concern of the conference officers was that they believed that too
> much emphasis was being placed on physical manifestations. . . . most of
> the action has been occurring in small group meetings, as I understand.
> In particular there was a "renewal meeting" (vineyardese for a meeting
> specifically designed to experience the power of the Holy Spirit) that
> was happening on Sabbath afternoons at the church.

Ah yes, just as Garrie Williams points out on page 340 of his recent book,
"The supernatural evidences of God's power that draw attention to the
church today are most apparent in small-group meetings.  Here members have
the opportunity to use effectively the spiritual gifts that God has given
them.  An overflow from this will be into the larger congregational
meetings of the church.  Members who have gained confidence by seeing the
Spirit and truth working miracles in small groups will be open to special
ministry for hurting people during and following each worship service."

> I did not observe any of these meetings firsthand and they have now been
> stopped at the request of the conference.  I am told, however, that
> a couple of our church's young men have received prophesies, there have
> been several healings, and many have experienced a phenomenon which is
> locally referred to as "resting in the Spirit" but is otherwise known
> as being "slain in the Spirit."  There has *not* been any glossolalia,
> or "holy laughter", or dispensing of "the anointing", or pushing people
> over to get healed.

This is absolutely fascinating!!!!  What I want to know...(if there are
any conference people on net, please talk with me...either publicly or
privately)...what I want to know is this...why the discontinuity between
what is preached to the churches and what is "allowed" to happen in the
churches?!?

Now, don't misunderstand me.  I am absolutely opposed to this whole
Movement.  I do not think it has any place in Seventh-day Adventist
churches.....however, having said that, I want to point out how strange
it seems to me that we will point people to these churches and recommend
their methods and leaders....and then be surprised when some in a church
go visit to visit and actually try out the same thing in their own church!
Is anyone reading the books we write?  Is anyone listening to the seminars
we hold?

Example:  Garrie Williams book _Welcome Holy Spirit_, the official senior
devotional book for 1995 speaks favorably of John Wimber and Vineyard, as
well as of Cho and other Third Wave leaders.  What about his seminars,
Steve?  (Or anyone who has been to one.)  You reported that he had been to
Albany for a seminar.  When was that?  Did you attend?  Hey guys....what is
going on in our church when the same conference administration will allow
presentations and will distribute books that recommend something...then war
with a local church who actually steps up and puts some of the recommended
things into practice?!?

BTW, Peter Wagner, who has been followed many years for his methods of

BTW, Peter Wagner, who has been followed many years for his methods of
church growth, has also become very closely associated with John Wimber,
and is a promoter of the Renewal Movement, with little or no cautionary
statements.  The Movement is also part of the Spiritual Warfare Movement,
of the type described in the Perroti novel (which is sold in our local ABC
at least), including the idea of territorial demons which can and must be
"bound" by active "warfare" on the part of Christians in order to open a
city or country to the reception of the gospel.  Wagner claims they know
which countries at present have the demons so bound that they are open to
the gospel...and that they "even know the names of some of them".  I did
not read far enough to assertain just how he got the information, and
Garrie Williams does not mention this detail when he tells the story on
page 304 of his book...though he does imply agreement with the theory of
territorial demons...calling them "evil powers who had claimed territorial
authority."

> It is tearing me up to see a conference administration which I know and
> respect and a church family which I have already grown to love, on a
> collision course.  There's enough blame and fault to go around.  Pray for
> us that there will also be enough of God's mercy to go around.

Never fear, there is enough of God's mercy...the question is whether we are
going to take seriously as a church, our task of feeding and educating the
flock, or whether we are going to allow anyone to say anything without
regard to whether it is biblical or not....and then point the finger at
the entangled sheep who *thought* they were following a shepherd.

> I would also welcome your advice, public or private, on this matter.
> If anyone thinks I've already said too much, let me know that, too.
> I do not plan to give out any details of the ongoing relationship
> between the pastor and the conference at this time.  It's evident that
> whatever happens, this will be a textbook case for ministers and
> conference leaders for years to come.

Our purpose and realm of service is to provide a truly open forum for
discussion.  I think you should continue providing details and should
encourage others to contribute not only reactions to the experience of
your church, but share any similar experiences and how they are being
handled.  I find it hard to believe that Albany is the only church so far
to have experimented with this sort of thing.

> So:  the theological questions

I want to comment on them...but in a separate post.

Bille

--
Bille Burdick                                                 615-472-5176
McDonald TN 37353                                  (bburdick@southern.edu)
                                                                              
>From sdanet  Mon Mar 20 19:00:48 1995
        by faris.ecn.purdue.edu (8.6.10/3.5davy)
>From: Tim Swensen 
>Subject: Re: The Albany revival
>To: sdanet@jill.sdanet.org
>Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 13:48:25 -0500 (EST)
In-Reply->To: <199503191527.KAA03386@jill.sdanet.org> from "Steve Timm" at Mar \
19, 95 11:27:06 am
>Sender: sdanet

> 4)  Can or does 1 Corinthians 14 refer to any other languages besides
> 4)  Can or does 1 Corinthians 14 refer to any other languages besides
>     languages that are known by some human people?
>
> Steve Timm

I'm entirely certain on this matter, but Dr. William Richardson of AU has a
relatively recent book on this subject, and Dr. Gerhard Hasel wrote on it
as well.  Having read a portion of Dr. Richardson's thesis and having sat
in his _Acts_and_Epistles_ class while he discussed this issue, I'll bet
his book is basically a distillation of his thesis for the layman.  If that
is so, the conclusions reached in his and Dr. Hasel's books will differ
markedly.

(Steve, I have a copy of Dr. Richardson's thesis.  If you really wish to
dig into this matter, I will send it to you, as I am not likely to finish
reading it.  Let me know.)

Tim Swensen
swensen@ecn.purdue.edu



>From sdanet  Mon Mar 20 19:06:27 1995
          id AA20137; Mon, 20 Mar 1995 17:02:53 -0500
>Subject: Re: The Albany revival
>To: sdanet@jill.sdanet.org
>Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 17:02:53 -0500 (EST)
>From: "Alice N Nkungula" 
In-Reply->To: <199503191527.KAA03386@jill.sdanet.org> from "Steve Timm" at Mar \
19, 95 11:27:06 am
>Sender: sdanet

Hi Steve:  Why is the revival by being slain by the spiriti skipping
Adventists?  Do we believe it is the power of the Devil?  Where can we tell
that these revivalists are not speaking "To the law and to the Testimony...it
is because there is no light in them?"  I admire them but when they think
Sunday is the day of worship I wonder why God does not show them His true
Sabbath.  I long for the spirit to be poured but I believe He is waiting for us
us to live the lives He wants us to and not just talk about love, concern for
others (lip service, I mean) when our actions are really far from what we say.
Where they are anointed by the spirit, I notice they do not have separate
churches--I only watch Ben Hinny on TV and I see mixed groups there.  Their
testimonies are also something else.  Well, tell us when you get strickin in
Albany then we will learn from you as to what methodologies we should take at
our church.  Thanks, interested netter.


>From sdanet  Mon Mar 20 22:15:57 1995
>From: sdanet (SDA Net)
>Subject: "Renewal" The SCP report. (fwd)1A
>To: sdanet-send
>Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 22:15:28 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0

Forwarded message:
> From bburdick@library.southern.edu Mon Mar 20 16:45:07 1995
> >From: Bille Burdick 
> Message-Id: <199503202144.QAA04304@library.southern.edu>
> >Subject: "Renewal" The SCP report.
> >To: sdanet@sdanet.org
> >Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 16:44:34 -0500 (EST)
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Content-Length: 15783
>
> This is the portion of the article on the Renewal Movement...also called
> Holy Laughter...posted by permission of Tal Brooke, President of SCP.  If
> you are at a Seventh-day Adventist College or University, it may be that you
> have access to the newsletter that contains this article in your college
> library, since we have recommended to ASDAL member libraries that they
> subscribe to the SCP Journals...and the news-letters are included in the
> subscription.  Order information and facts about the SCP organization are
> included at the end of the article.
>
> This article gives descriptions from an observers point of view, and a
> little of the history.  I'll give some summary points from the remainder of
> this article and other material from the newsletter relative to this in a
> separate post.
>
> One thing that I wish you would keep in mind as you think through these
> things...John Wimber of Vineyard Fellowship groups is being mentioned
> favorably by sda authors and speakers.  He is actively promoting this
> "revival".  It seems to me that this is something we should be preaching
> and writing against rather than even indirectly supporting it by favorable
> references to both Wimber and Vineyard.  I'll be interested in your
> comments.
>
> > From TalB1@aol.com Mon Jan 30 19:37:27 1995
> > >To: bburdick@library.southern.edu
>
> > -An Excerpt from SCP's latest Newsletter-
> >
> > Holy Laughter or Strong Delusion
> > By Warren Smith, SCP staff correspondent
> > Copyright, SCP, Inc. 1994/5
>
> [All the following is quoted from the article.]
> > I watched the video again. It was entitled Signs and Wonders Campmeeting
> > l994. Pastors of huge charismatic churches were stumbling around the church
> > stage " drunk" with "holy" laughter. Wanting to testify to the fact that
> > "holy" laughter had transformed their ministries and their lives, many of
> > them were unable to speak when called on to do so. But their "drunken"
> > condition became their testimony. Their halting speech was seen as "proof"
> > of the " power of the spirit" that had come over them. The congregation
> > roared in approval as pastor after pastor laughed uncontrollably and then
> > fell to the floor. Standing alongside the "drunken" pastors was evangelist
> > Rodney Howard-Browne, the self described "Holy Ghost bartender" who was
> > serving up this " new wine" of "holy" laughter. Many Christians today
> > believe that Howard-Browne is God's appointed channel for imparting joy
> > and revival to the endtimes church. Other Christians see Howard-Browne
> > as a false prophet who is inflicting great damage to the body of Christ.
> >
> > Early last spring The Spiritual Counterfeits Project received a fax from
> > someone expressing concern about a new phenomenon called " holy" laughter.
> > He said that a San Francisco Bay Area Vineyard Church was experiencing
> > what was being described as " revival" and that the manifestation of
> > "holy" laughter was being cited as one of the signs of this "revival."
> > Church members and visitors were reportedly breaking into fits of
> > spontaneous and uncontrollable laughter during their nightly services.
> >
> > Later when I talked with several members of the San Francisco Vineyard
> > congregation I was told how hundreds of people were getting "hit"  with
> > "revival." How some people were getting so "soaked in the spirit"  they
> > would lose consciousness for up to several hours after falling to the
> > ground with "holy" laughter. The Vineyard members described "holy"
> > laughter unqualifiedly as "awesome" and definitely "the work of the Lord."
> >
> > I learned that their Vineyard pastors had recently flown to a Vineyard
> > church in Toronto where God had reportedly "touched down" and where
> > "revival" had "broken out."   The San Francisco pastors participating in
> > the Toronto "revival" had then "brought it back" to San Francisco. It
> > seemed that one of the characteristics of "holy" laughter is that it
> > can be easily transferred from one person to another through the laying
> > on of hands. Thus the Toronto "revival" had now "spread" to San Francisco.
> > Nightly meetings were now being held at the San Francisco Vineyard to
> > accommodate the streams of people wanting to get "touched" by this
> > "move of God."
> >
> > Within weeks of my visit to Vineyard I happened to catch a program on
> > "holy" laughter on a local Christian TV station. The panel of guests were
> > enthusiastically discussing "holy" laughter and endorsing it unquestioningl\
y
> > as a latter days "outpouring" of God's Holy Spirit. Comparing "holy" laught\
er
> > to the "work" of the Spirit at Pentecost, they were convinced that "holy"
> > laughter was completely authentic. They equated "holy" laughter with the
> > biblical notion of joy.  As far as they were concerned "holy" laughter was
> > the "joy of the Lord."  Scriptural references to joy were sighted-testimoni
es
> > were given-songs were sung-and by the end of the program I felt like I had
> > just watched a one hour info-mercial on "holy" laughter.
> >
> > Then, several weeks later there was a program about "holy" laughter on the
> > Trinity Broadcasting Network.  While preacher Rodney Howard-Browne was givi\
ng
> > what appeared to be a serious message, people in the audience were laughing
> > wildly for no apparent reason.  But Howard-Browne seemed oblivious to the
> > disruption and kept on preaching.  Then when the laughter was at its height\

> > he began incorporating all that was happening into his sermon. He said
> > that the "holy" laughter they were experiencing was a last days expression
> > of God's "Holy Spirit." He too compared the "Spirit" that was manifesting
> > to the Spirit at Pentecost. He reminded his audience how those gathered in
> > the upper room had been viewed by others as being "drunk" on alcohol when
> > in fact they were "drunk" in the Spirit.
> >
> > Howard-Browne's audience continued to laugh hilariously as he spoke of a
> > present day "revival"-and how "holy" laughter was ushering in this "revival
> > At the end of the service Howard-Browne  shuffled around the huge assembly
> > hall now breaking into long fits of laughter himself. As he walked around,
> > talking and laughing and speaking in tongues, he began to lay hands on
> > people. After his saying "be filled" and repeating the phrase " from the to\
p
> > of your head to the tips of your toes" people would fall to the ground in
> > hysterical laughter. As the program ended the evangelist continued to weave
> > his way amongst the fallen bodies-many of them still convulsed in laughter.
> >
> > Also during this time I was sent a copy of a flyer saying that Charles and
> > Frances Hunter, the authors of a new book entitled Holy Laughter, were comi\
ng
> > to Portland, Maine. The flyer said, "God is filling the church with holy
> > laughter! Come and receive a baptism of joy! YOU will never be the same!
> > Don't miss this unforgettable move of the Holy Spirit!"  Another book on
> > "holy" laughter entitled Fresh Anointing: Another Great Awakening was also
> > brought to my attention at this time. In it, Author Mona Johnian describes
> > the "holy" laughter "revival" that erupted in her Boston church after she
> > and her husband attended a meeting led by Rodney Howard-Browne.
> >
> > Also in the midst of this same two month period there was yet another progr\
am
> > on "holy" laughter. I was watching a locally televised church service and t\
he
> > guest preacher was Richard Roberts -the president of Oral Roberts Universit\
y
> > and son of Oral Roberts. His whole sermon was on "holy" laughter and how it
> > had changed his life and ministry. He described how "revival" had come to
> > Oral Roberts University. Roberts explained how he had canceled classes for
> > two days so that his four thousand students could personally experience the
> > "joy of the Lord" and receive the "gift" of "holy" laughter. I was not
> > surprised to learn that the "revival" Roberts was describing had come throu\
gh
> > the person of Rodney Howard-Browne.
> >
> > And then to round out my summer crash course on the subject of "holy"
> > laughter, the August issue of Charisma magazine had Rodney Howard-Browne on
> > its cover.  He was clearly the man of the hour. The cover story on this, by
> > now wildly popular "Holy Ghost bartender," was entitled "Praise the Lord a
d
> > Pass the New Wine." The article was yet one more endorsement of
> > Howard-Browne and "holy" laughter. And what I was starting to realize was
> > that all of the "holy" laughter I had recently encountered-the TV programs,
> > the books, the various "anointings" and "revivals" could all be traced back
> > to him. Toronto Vineyard, San Francisco Vineyard, the Hunters, Mona Johnian\
,
> > Richard Roberts and all the rest. The Charisma article described Rodney
> > Howard-Browne as the "spiritual conduit" for "holy" laughter. But what I
> > wanted to know was how did Rodney Howard-Browne get his "anointing?"
> >
> > The Charisma article stated that in South Africa, in the summer of l979,
> > Howard-Browne "spent hours praying for a deeper experience with God." In th\
e
> > midst of his prayers he is quoted as having told God, " either You come dow\
n
> > here and touch me, or I will come up there and touch You."  Charisma said
> > that suddenly in the midst of that prayer Howard-Browne's "whole body felt
> > like it was on fire. He began to laugh uncontrollably. Then he wept and b
> > to speak in tongues."  In Howard-Browne's book The Touch of God, Charisma
> > quotes him as saying, "I was plugged into heaven's electric supply, and sin\
ce
> > then my desire has been to go and plug other people in."
> >
> > And certainly one of the most outstanding characteristics of Howard-Browne'\
s
> > "anointing" and the whole "laughing revival" is that it is so immediately
> > transferable from person to person. Those "anointed" by Howard-Browne can n\
ow
> > "anoint" others. And that is what's happening. The "Spirit" that visited
> > Howard-Browne has exponentially multiplied as it has been passed on from
> > person to person around the world. A video advertised in that same August
> > issue of Charisma documents the spread of Howard-Browne's "holy" laughter.
> > It is entitled The Laugh that  was Heard 'round the World.
> >
> > The "holy" laughter "revival" started by Howard-Browne is spreading like
> > wildfire around the world. A recent conference sponsored by Toronto Vineyar\
d
> > drew 2200 pastors from countries as far away as Cambodia. They had all come
> > to observe the "laughing revival" that was now being called "The Toronto
> > Blessing." Even skeptical pastors were getting "hit" with the " Spirit" and
> > then taking that " Spirit" back to their churches and towns.
> >
> >
> > Howard-Browne's "laughing revival" has now officially moved into the
> > Christian mainstream with a recent endorsement from Pat Robertson on his
> > popular 700 Club. On October 27, l994 Robertson said this about holy
> > laughter, "...what this says to me is revival is taking place in the world \
in
> > a mass wave...and we look to the coming of the Lord. I think this is a very
> > encouraging sign in the middle of all this trouble and all these wars and a\
ll
> > this confusion. God is saying I'm  on the throne and I'm going to touch
> > multiplied millions. It's wonderful. I applaud it."
> >
(part 1a from Bille Burdick)>

>From sdanet  Mon Mar 20 22:20:28 1995
>From: sdanet (SDA Net)
>Subject: "Renewal" The SCP report. (fwd)
>To: sdanet-send
>Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 22:19:53 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0

Forwarded message:
[From Bille Burdick, a continuation of part 1A]
> >
> > But what does the Bible say about laughter?
> >
> > Last summer, after watching Rodney Howard-Browne on TBN I  consulted my
> > concordance to see if there was any biblical precedent for "holy" laughter.
> > Surprisingly, I found only 40 references to laughter in the Bible-34 of the\
m
> > were in the Old Testament, while only 6 were in the New Testament. Of those
> > 40 references 22 of them referred to scornful laughter -as in Nehemiah 2:19
> > when Nehemiah said,"they laughed us to scorn." Of the 18 remaining referenc\
es
> > to laughter, seven of them referred exclusively to Abraham and Sarah's
> > initial disbelief and ultimate astonishment that God would give them a chil\
d
> > in their old age. Barely into my study on laughter and I was already down t\
o
> > my last 11 references.
> >
> > In Job:8:21 Bildad, one of Job's false comforters, wrongly advised Job that
> > if he were in right standing with God he would be prosperous and full of
> > laughter. The Psalmist in Psalm 126:2 recorded that when the captivity of
> > Zion was over, " then was our mouth filled with laughter and our tongue wit\
h
> > singing." Proverbs 29:9 says, "if a wise man contendeth with a foolish man,
> > whether he rage or laugh, there is no rest."
> >
> > With only 8 remaining references I had seen nothing in the Bible up to this
> > point that suggested anything even resembling "holy" laughter. In
> > Ecclesiastes 2:2 Solomon says, "I said of laughter, it is mad."  Ecclesiast\
es
> > 3:4 says, there is "a time to weep and a time to laugh; a time to mourn and\
 a
> > time to dance."  Ecclesiastes 7:3-4 says, " sorrow is better than laughter:
> > for by the sadness of the countenance the heart is made better. The heart o\
f
> > the wise is in the house of mourning; but the heart of fools is in the hous\
e
> > of mirth."  Ecclesiastes 7:6 says, "for as the crackling of thorns under a
> > pot, so is the laughter of a fool: this also is vanity."  Ecclesiastes 10:1\
9
> > says that "a feast is made for laughter, and wine maketh merry."
> >
> > Interestingly the Bible's last three references to laughter-the only three
> > references to authentic laughter in the New Testament-warn against laughter\
.
> > These three references actually seemed to underline Solomon's contention in
> > Ecclesiastes that "sorrow is better than laughter" and that now is a time t\
o
> > weep and not to laugh. In  Luke 6:21 Jesus says, "blessed are ye that weep
> > now: for ye shall laugh."  In Luke 6:25 Jesus says," woe unto you that laug\
h
> > now! for ye shall mourn and weep." James 4:9 tells us not to laugh but to
> > "be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to
> > mourning, and your joy to heaviness."
> >
> > I had searched the scriptures to find any biblical precedent for "holy"
> > laughter and there was none. To my amazement, I  had discovered that there
> > were surprisingly few references in the Bible to any kind of laughter perio\
d.
> > Did this mean that God doesn't have a sense of humor or that people in the
> > Bible never laughed? No. It just meant that laughter apparently wasn't
> > something that God chose to emphasize very much. And certainly Jesus' last
> > words on laughter-"woe unto you who laugh now!"-were not ones that would se\
em
> > to give any encouragement to a "laughing revival."
> >
> > END OF EXCERPT.
> >
> > Copyright, SCP, Inc. 1994/5
> >
> > SCP, Inc. is a resource on New Religious trends & Cults
> > President/Chairman-Tal Brooke
> > Box 4308
> > Berkeley, CA, 94704
> > Phone: 510-540-0300
> >
> > The Newsletter containing the entire Holy Laughter article is $3.50, which
> > includes postage and handling.
> >
> > Annual subscription for SCP Journals and Newsletters are $25 within the US.
> > $35 for outside the United States (airmail is more).
> >
> > Facts about SCP (Spiritual Counterfeits Project)
> >
> > As early as 1975 SCP anticipated the New Age movement and the rise of spiri\
t
> > channeling in its publications and hot-line. SCP is a think-tank comprised \
of
> > people from top schools who have spent years on various spiritual paths-fro\
m
> > Sai Baba & Rajneesh, to TM & the Course in Miracles- before leaving them.
> >
> > The award-winning SCP Journal (a First Place EPA winner) is geared for
> > demanding readers offering authentic insight into the very latest religious
> > phenomena such as Deep Ecology, GAIA, Witchcraft, & UFOs from a well
> > thought-out Conservative Christian perspective.  SCP maintains extensive
> > files on cults, the occult, and new religious movements-over 3,000
> > groups-which the New York City Library assesses as the most complete
> > collection in the Unites States.
>From sdanet  Mon Mar 20 22:21:11 1995
>From: Bille Burdick 
>Subject: "Renewal" The SCP report, part 2
>To: sdanet@sdanet.org
>Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 16:58:00 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
>Sender: sdanet

In this post I am summarizing some of the points Warren Smith makes in his
article on "holy laughter" in the Fall 1994 _SCP Newsletter_.  His concerns
about the movement include:

[Alll wording is mine unless enclosed in quotation marks...in which case
they are his.]

That there is no biblical precedent, indeed its advocates rarely, if ever,
discuss testing the spirits or biblical warnings against seductive evil
spirits, particularly in the "last days".  While they talk much about signs
and wonders, rarely do they mention biblical warnings against deceptive
signs and wonders.

That it is passed from one to another by the "laying on of hands", but this
is done to anybody, in contrast with the biblical example of the apostles
refusing to lay hands on one whose heart was not "right".

That the attitude of Howard-Browne in his prayer before he received his
"anointing" was demanding rather than "thy will be done".

That the confusion and disorder is not representative of biblical directives
to have all things done decently and in order. Its advocates even blatantly
mock the idea of "decently and in order", and call for a break with such
traditions.
                                                                                      
That the phenomena seem equivilant to those experienced in various new age
and eastern groups.
                               -----------

In addition to the article by Warren Smith, the newsletter also gave some
examples of this phenomena in other religions from China, Africa, and
India, especially Kudalini.

Quoting from a book by Christina and Stanislav Grof, where they are
describing the awakening of the Kundalini energy, "individuals involved
in this process might find it difficult to control their behavior; during
powerful rushes of Kundalini energy, they often emit various involuntary
sounds, and their bodies move in strange and unexpected patterns.  Among
the most common manifestations...are unmotivated and unnatural laughter
or crying, talking tongues...and imitating a variety of animal sounds and
movements".

Bhagwhan Shree Rajneesh used a similar expression, being "drunk on the
divine.  "Bhagvhan's spiritual 'wine' was often passed along with a single
touch to the head.  Many of his Sannyasins would fall to the floor in
ecxtasy after their encounters with Rajneesh."

Ramakrishna went into a trance, "often accompanied by uncontrollable
laughter or weeping.  He could send others into this state with a single
touch to the head or chest".

Swami Baba Muktananda also transferred through physical touch "grace" which
"triggered the gradual awakening of the Kundalini wich in turn produced
various physical and emotional manifestations...included uncontrollable
laughing, roaring, barking, hissing, crying, shaking, etc.... Many felt
themselves being infused with feelings of great joy and peace and love."
                              ------------

Isn't it interesting, that one of the most often mentioned "evidences" by
defenders of the Vineyard type Renewal is the feeling of great joy and peace
and love which it brings to them.

--
Bille Burdick                                                 615-472-5176
McDonald TN 37353                                  (bburdick@southern.edu)
>From sdanet  Tue Mar 21 21:43:31 1995
>Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 08:03:13 -0500 (EST)
>From: Richard Thompson 
>Subject: Re: The Albany revival
>To: sdanet@jill.sdanet.org
In-Reply->To: <9503202202.AA20137@student5.cl.msu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
>Sender: sdanet

I think a big problem a lot of us have is that we have no idea what a true
manifestation of the Holy Spirit will look like, probably because we have
little insight into who God is and what His aims are.
We tend to focus so much on petty externals that we judge everything by
it's physical appearance (which Jesus Himself does not do- Is. 11:3-4),
and so we want a "sign". We want to see how people are dressed, we demand
that they "prove" they are Christians, etc., and some of us carry this to
it's logical and unreasonable conclusion and expect flashy signs, people
falling, babbling, and all kinds of other things.
God is not into cheap shows or flashy happenings. He is a Healer. He is a
still small voice. He is Love. And where His spirit is, freedom is there.
When the Holy Spirit is poured out on us in full measure, we may not
babble or speak in tongues. We may not lay on hands and heal. We may not
roll around on the ground and moan. But we will love as He loves. We will
see as He sees. We will treat people with genuine respect, openness and
compassion. We will not have time to put down our brothers and sisters in
the church and our brothers and sisters outside. And in loving, we will
have met God's highest requirement for us, for love is the fulfilling of
the law and the bond of perfection.
That a human heart can love unselfishly and that this love is translated
into action and respect, THIS is the greatest miracle we can imagine and
my hope and prayer for us.

Peace,
Rich

>From sdanet  Tue Mar 21 22:23:32 1995
 (PMDF V4.3-9 #7713) id <01HOE30LTQ348WW1VE@OREGON.UOREGON.EDU>; Tue,
 21 Mar 1995 08:13:39 -0800 (PST)
>Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 08:06:31 -0800
>From: sjm@darkwing.uoregon.edu (Sally McMillan)
>Subject: Re: The Albany revival
X->Sender: sjm@darkwing.uoregon.edu
>To: sdanet@jill.sdanet.org
Message-id: <01HOE30MLIBM8WW1VE@OREGON.UOREGON.EDU>
X-Envelope-to: sdanet@jill.sdanet.org
>Sender: sdanet

This post has had me thinking for several days.  There are many issues here.
 I'd like to briefly address a few of them.

At 11:27 AM 3/19/95, Steve Timm wrote:
>This is a tangled web of bad interpersonal communications between the pastor
>and the conference, and a theological issue.

Isn't it ironic that issues of communication as they relate to church
structure and function so often get tied up with issues of theology?
Perhaps this is one of the reasons that our "founders" held out for so long
against formal organization.

There is a large body of literature on organizational communication and the
things that organizations will do (or more accurately that people within
organizations will do) to ensure survival and status quo of the
organizational entity.  The fact that we have organizational structure
within the church almost guarantees that these types of organizational
struggles will occur.

Seems to me we need two things:  1) members who prayerfully seek to
understand the nature of organizations and separate their personal theology
from the mechanistic struggles of the organization, and 2) organizational
leaders who prayerful strive to separate issues of organization from issues
of theology.  A threat to a religious organization does NOT have to be
interpreted as a threat to the theological base of that organization.
                                                                                 


>All that I ask from a church is that they need me and they feed me. . .

Thanks Steve.  I have felt this way too, but have not expressed my feelings
so succinctly.  There have been times in my personal experience where the
local SDA church did not either need me or feed me.  I chose to attend a
Congregational church where I was fed and needed.  I'm sure that other
netters will find cause to disagree with this decision, but I do think that
at times we within the SDA church have been a bit too concerned with our
need to "flock together" with others whose belief systems concur with ours.
Is this another instance of the church as "organization" trying to sustain
itself?


>5)  Is the baptism of the Holy Spirit something that every believer *can& have\
?
>    Is it something that every believer *must* have?

This is a fascinating question.  In our present-day understanding of the
baptism of the Holy Spirit, we seem to associate the Holy Spirit with an
outpouring of "gifts" that seem inexplicable to our scientifically-oriented
Western minds (i.e. miraculous healing, speaking in unknown tongues,
prophecies, etc.).

After lurking online for a few weeks, I get the sense that most of the
participants on SDAnet are, like me, fairly oriented to the cerebral,
logical, linear pattern of thought that has become the dominant paradigm of
the Western mind in the last century.  To those of us with this orientation,
an outpouring of the Holy Spirit seems alien, and perhaps even threatening.
To plagiarize Mr. Spock, it is not logical.

Does this mean that we need to train ourselves in Eastern mysticism?  I
don't think so.  Does it mean we need to be more open to phenomena that we
can't explain with science?  Perhaps.  Does it mean we should augment our
systematic quest for truth as found in the written word with a more
meditative journey into the Spirit of those writings?  I think so.
Sally McMillan
sjm@darkwing.uoregon.edu
>Subject: Baptism of the Spirit (Albany Revival)
>To: sdanet@sdanet.org
>Date: Wed, 22 Mar 1995 01:16:23 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
>Sender: sdanet

Steve Timm appended this list of theological questions to his post on the
situation in Albany.  I think they are very crucial questions and deserve
some real study as well as attention.  A difficulty is going to come in
understanding what we mean by each term or phrase in each question.  Many of
these have more than one meaning, depending on the group or context in which
it is used.

Steve, since you raised these questions in the Albany context, would you
post a synopsis of how these things are being understood or discussed
there.  Are there differences of opinion on these questions in your local
church?

I am reordering Steve's questions, and considering only those having to do
with the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Steve Timm wrote:
> 5)  Is the baptism of the Holy Spirit something that every believer *can*
> have?  Is it something that every believer *must* have?

As I understand it, in the Protestant/Evangelical interpretation of
scripture, the baptism of the Holy Spirit is equated with the new birth.
Thus by definition, the questions "can" or "must" do not apply, since the
new birth...the baptism of the Holy Spirit...is what creates the "new
believer".  Thus every believer *has been* baptized of the Holy Spirit...
according to scripture, this is a *fact* at the beginning of the Christian
life.

However, Charismatic/Pentecostal theology sees this much differently.
Charismatic/Pentecostals believe that *after* one becomes a Christian,
he/she must seek diligently for the "baptism of the Holy Spirit".  The
baptism of the Spirit is defined as an *experience* of some phenomena,
including speaking in tongues, feelings of euphoria, visions, and emotional
outbursts of various kinds.  Those who have not had these experiences are
not considered to be Spirit filled; they are immature or incomplete
Christians.
Seventh-day Adventists are in line with Protestant/Evangelical thought.
The Holy Spirit is seen as convicting of sin and leading to repentance.
Baptism by water, in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is a
sign that the person has experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit...
conviction, repentance, and the new birth...the beginning of the new life
in the Spirit.

Unfortunately, there are some among us today who are writing and teaching
a Charismatic/Pentecostal concept of the work of the Holy Spirit, involving
special phenomena and experiences which are to be sought by the believer to
attain to a higher level of spirituality.

> 1) Is having the Holy Spirit in you and being baptized by the Holy Spirit
> two different things?

In Protestant and SDA thought, the baptism of the Holy Spirit begins a life
of living in the Holy Spirit...and Him in you...which is the Spirit filled,
growing Christian life.

> 2)  Is the laying on of hands and praying for the baptism of the Holy
> Spirit still a valid way to receive the Holy Spirit today?  Is it the
> *only* way to do so?

One problem that I have with the current emphasis on the Holy Spirit is that
it takes attention away from Jesus Christ.  It is *Christ* that we are to
receive.  When we receive Christ, the Holy Spirit does come and fill us.
While there are instances in the New Testament where the Apostles laid hands
on specific individuals and they received the Holy Spirit...there is no
indication that this was normative for *all* who received the Holy Spirit.
If, as we have believed, the baptism of the Holy Spirit is the new birth
that begins the Christian life, then it doesn't make sense for Christians
to need someone to lay hands on them and pray for the baptism of the Holy
Spirit...they have already received it.

As to the second question...I would be more inclined to say that it is
*never* the way to do so than I would to say that it is the *only* way.

As it is practiced in the Third Wave groups, the laying on of hands has
more similarity to the "laying on of hands" which is used to transfer occult
powers than it does to the New Testament practice.  I have been criticized
for condemning something on the basis that it is similar to something
else...however I have not been convinced that it is not legitimate to look
for similarities between various practices and phenomena as one way of
judging their origin.

--
Bille Burdick                                                 615-472-5176
McDonald TN 37353                                  (bburdick@southern.edu)
                                                                                
>From: Bille Burdick 
>Subject: Re: The Albany revival
>To: sdanet@jill.sdanet.org
>Date: Wed, 22 Mar 1995 08:45:20 -0500 (EST)
In-Reply->To: <9503202202.AA20137@student5.cl.msu.edu> from "Alice N Nkungula" \
at Mar 20, 95 05:02:53 pm
MIME-Version: 1.0
>Sender: sdanet


Alice wrote:
> Hi Steve:  Why is the revival by being slain by the spirit skipping
> Adventists?  Do we believe it is the power of the Devil?

I'm not Steve....but I'll venture a direct answer to this.  Yes, I do.
Background for my decision:  Until about 20 years ago, all teaching in the
SDA church about the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in the last days was
accompanied by the scriptural warnings against the miracle working deceptive
power that Satan would be allowed to exercise in the last days.  We were
urged to compare whatever miraculous manifestations that might occur with
the biblical teachings about those things which scripture taught about the
work and person of the Holy Spirit....and not be afraid of judging something
of the devil that did not rationally compare favorably with scripture
teaching.  In recent years those cautions have been *almost* completely
eliminated from our teaching...even though we have increased our urging
people to seek the outpouring in language which suggests that it will be
accompanied by signs and miracles.

> Where can we tell that these revivalists are not speaking "To the law and
> to the Testimony...it is because there is no light in them?"  I admire
> them but when they think Sunday is the day of worship I wonder why God
> does not show them His true Sabbath.

There is nowhere in scripture where the distinction of the day of worship is
given as a test of a true or false spirit.  "The law and Testimony" as used
here refers to the whole of scripture.  At the time it was written it would
have refered only to the books of Moses....since then God has added to those
initial books, and we now have both the Old and New Testaments to "search to
see if these things be true."

Read my post again in which I summed up some of the scriptural reasons which
the Christian writer and researcher, Warren Smith, gives as reason for his
concerns about the manifestations in the Vineyard style "Revivals".  For
more indepth study, and a more positive condemnation of not only the "Third
Wave" manifestations, but also the excesses of Pentecostalism in general, I
refer you to a book I have recommended before on sdanet:

_Charismatic Chaos_ by John F. McArthur, Jr. Zondervon Publishing House,
1992 edition.

> I long for the spirit to be poured but I believe He is waiting for us us
> to live the lives He wants us to and not just talk about love, concern for
> others (lip service, I mean) when our actions are really far from what we
> say.

What you are describing is the fruit of the Spirit, and is the prime
indication, according to scripture, that the person is already "filled with
the Spirit", these actions and attitudes are not pre-requisite behavior for
the reception of the Spirit.

> Where they are anointed by the spirit, I notice they do not have separate
> churches--I only watch Ben Hinny on TV and I see mixed groups there.  Their
> testimonies are also something else.

I agree with your last statement!  They are indeed "something else"....
something else/other that what can be harmonized with scripture!  As to
having mixed racial groups there...that also is no scriptural test of the
authenticity of doctrine.  Yes, there is scriptural basis for integrated and
inclusive racial and gender harmony, love, and mutual acceptance....(don't
any of you DARE to suggest I am denying that!)...but again, that harmony and
love is a fruit of the Spirit....but not exclusively indicative of the
Spirit.

> Well, tell us when you get strickin in
> Albany then we will learn from you as to what methodologies we should take at
> our church.  Thanks, interested netter.

I am appalled that you would make this light of a matter that has nothing to
do with methodology....and everything to do with the question of whether the
spirit who is doing the "strickin" is the Holy Spirit or a demonic spirit!
--
Bille Burdick                                                 615-472-5176
McDonald TN 37353                                  (bburdick@southern.edu)
>From sdanet  Wed Mar 22 21:09:59 1995
>Date: Wed, 22 Mar 95 15:06:54 CST
>From: pbeedle@prairienet.org (Paul Beedle)
>To: sdanet@jill.sdanet.org
>Subject: Re: The Albany revival
Reply->To: pbeedle@prairienet.org
>Sender: sdanet



sally writes:

   [snip]

>After lurking online for a few weeks, I get the sense that most of the
>participants on SDAnet are, like me, fairly oriented to the cerebral,
>logical, linear pattern of thought that has become the dominant paradigm of
>the Western mind in the last century.

hey!!  i resemble that remark .

>To those of us with this orientation,
>an outpouring of the Holy Spirit seems alien, and perhaps even threatening.
>To plagiarize Mr. Spock, it is not logical.
>
>Does this mean that we need to train ourselves in Eastern mysticism?  I
>don't think so.  Does it mean we need to be more open to phenomena that we
>can't explain with science?  Perhaps.  Does it mean we should augment our
>systematic quest for truth as found in the written word with a more
>meditative journey into the Spirit of those writings?  I think so.

using my logical approach to bible-study on the holy Spirit, i find two
distinct manifestations:

   1. the fruits - everyone must must bear all the fruits
   2. the gifts  - they are divided among each other in differing quantities

using the approach of studying bible concepts in their context, i find the
following thought about the "unforgivable sin", which is found in matthew
12:22-37.  Jesus just healed someone, and the pharisees claimed it was of
the devil, so Jesus said unto them (among other things), "...all manner of
sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the
holy ghost shall not be forgiven unto men."  what was the blasphemy that
Jesus was alluding to?  was it not the pharisees' claim that Jesus healed
by the power of the devil?

as much as i question the ministries of oral roberts and other healers; though
i wonder about speaking in tongues; i *refuse* to say that they are from the
devil, because maybe God *is* using these people as his instrument.  after
all, God used balaam and saul.

coming back to sally's thought... one of my favorite quotes of ellen white
is that not one in twenty youth know what is meant by an experimental
religion (this is from long-term memory and i don't know the reference).
i believe this is what you are recommending.  true?


paul beedle

--
pbeedle@prairienet.org

>From sdanet  Thu Mar 23 17:30:41 1995
>From: Bille Burdick 
>Subject: Re: The Albany revival
>To: sdanet@jill.sdanet.org
>Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 00:29:38 -0500 (EST)
In-Reply->To: <9503222106.AA13172@firefly.prairienet.org> from "Paul Beedle" at\
 Mar 22, 95 03:06:54 pm
MIME-Version: 1.0
>Sender: sdanet
                                                                       
>
> sally writes:
> >To those of us with this orientation,
> >an outpouring of the Holy Spirit seems alien, and perhaps even threatening. \

> >To plagiarize Mr. Spock, it is not logical.

Sally, the call of God through scripture is to come and reason.  There is a
difference between a Mr Spock type of judging everything by whether it is
logical and using our rational reasoning minds to scripture and use them as
a basis by which to judge our experience.  The outpouring of the Holy Spirit
is described in scripture.  Unfortunately, we have mostly focused our study
attention on those rare instances when there were overt manifestations of a
supernatural appearance.  The majority of reference to the Holy Spirit's
work does not seem alien at all.  So the question arises...if what is being
described as the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in current time sounds alien,
it is perhaps because it is alien to the descriptions of the Spirit that are
given in Scripture?

> >Does this mean that we need to train ourselves in Eastern mysticism?  I
> >don't think so.  Does it mean we need to be more open to phenomena that we
> >can't explain with science?  Perhaps.  Does it mean we should augment our
> >systematic quest for truth as found in the written word with a more
> >meditative journey into the Spirit of those writings?  I think so.

I am uncomfortable with your phrase "augment our systematic quest for truth
as found in the written word".  I think our quest for truth begins and ends
with scripture...the function of the Holy Spirit is to guide us into all
truth, but that is guidance within the "written word" not truth from a
meditative journey.

Paul wrote:
> using my logical approach to bible-study on the holy Spirit, i find two
> distinct manifestations:
>
>    1. the fruits - everyone must must bear all the fruits
>    2. the gifts  - they are divided among each other in differing quantities
>
> using the approach of studying bible concepts in their context, i find the
> following thought about the "unforgivable sin", which is found in matthew
> 12:22-37.  Jesus just healed someone, and the pharisees claimed it was of
> the devil, so Jesus said unto them (among other things), "...all manner of
> sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the
> holy ghost shall not be forgiven unto men."  what was the blasphemy that
> Jesus was alluding to?  was it not the pharisees' claim that Jesus healed
> by the power of the devil?

Scripture has not only context, but application.  The pharisees had had
ample evidence that Jesus was who he claimed to be.  In the modernday
manifestations of so called activity by the Holy Spirit, we do not have
any such convincing evidence that the Son of God is indeed among us.

> as much as i question the ministries of oral roberts and other healers; thoug\
h
> i wonder about speaking in tongues; i *refuse* to say that they are from the
> devil, because maybe God *is* using these people as his instrument.  after
> all, God used balaam and saul.

This is a copout.  There are direct instructions in scripture to test the
spirits.  There are direct warnings in scripture about satan appearing as an
angel of light.  There are other warnings about lying wonders and miracles
that God will allow Satan to work.  There are warnings of deceptions which
will be come close to deceiving the very elect...and the implication seems
to be that some who thought they were elect will be deceived by them.

You say you *refuse* to say they are from the devil.... My question is, how
can you be a Christian who supposedly will stand for the right though the
heavens fall and refuse to take sides on calling evil evil and good good?!
Have you researched into the lives and work of these healers?  Do you know
anything about the statistics of their successes and failures?  Are you
aware that there have been many deaths directly connected with people
relying on their "healing" rather than seeking medical help?  Are you aware
that a scholar from Oral Roberts own institution has written one of the most
revealing books about the whole Word Faith Movement?

On what are you basing your refusal to decide whether these things might be
from spirits of devils.  Have you read the book that both Steve and I have
recommended repeatedly since last fall when this subject first came to our
attention....Charismatic Chaos....?  Have you analysed and evaluated any
specific phenomena?  Have you compared the phenomena with examples given in
scripture....or are you one of those who does not believe that an experience
needs to be tested by scripture?

> coming back to sally's thought... one of my favorite quotes of ellen white
> is that not one in twenty youth know what is meant by an experimental
> religion (this is from long-term memory and i don't know the reference).
> i believe this is what you are recommending.  true?

I think you should check the reference and the context.  Yes, Ellen White
said we should have experimental religion....but by that she did *not* mean
that our religion should be grounded upon our experiments.  Nor did she mean
that we should refuse to identify by searching the scriptures whether what
we see with our eyes and handle with our hands and feel with our emotions is
of God or of Satan.  Ellen White was not one to see Satan behind every bush,
nor as responsible for every sin....but she was also not one to refuse to
call sin by its right name.

--
Bille Burdick                                                 615-472-5176
McDonald TN 37353                                  (bburdick@southern.edu)
>From sdanet  Thu Mar 23 17:46:00 1995
 (PMDF V4.3-9 #7713) id <01HOGBAEXXO08WW5OO@OREGON.UOREGON.EDU>; Wed,
 22 Mar 1995 22:32:09 -0800 (PST)
>Date: Wed, 22 Mar 1995 22:24:57 -0800
>From: sjm@darkwing.uoregon.edu (Sally McMillan)
>Subject: Re: The Albany revival
X->Sender: sjm@darkwing.uoregon.edu
>To: sdanet@jill.sdanet.org, sdanet@jill.sdanet.org
Message-id: <01HOGBAFPRVM8WW5OO@OREGON.UOREGON.EDU>
X-Envelope-to: sdanet@jill.sdanet.org
>Sender: sdanet

Paul writes:

>coming back to sally's thought... one of my favorite quotes of ellen white
>is that not one in twenty youth know what is meant by an experimental
>religion (this is from long-term memory and i don't know the reference).
>i believe this is what you are recommending.  true?

I don't have the quote for you, but that's about the way I remember it.  I'm
not sure if I'm recommending it or not.  It's something I've long thought I
*should* have (an experimental/experiential religion that is), but it's not
something I can honestly say I've achieved.

Like you, I am dubious of the "Oral Roberts tradition," but I can't say
whether it is wrong or right.  Is this realtivism?  If so, is it dangerous?

My answer is yes, and no.  I fear that one of the dangers of our SDA
"teachings" is that we look too hard for black and white.  Sometimes things
really do come in shades of gray.  We musn't be quick to judge.

Sally McMillan
sjm@darkwing.uoregon.edu

>From sdanet  Thu Mar 23 18:24:43 1995
>Date: 23 Mar 1995 09:38:54 U
>From: "Fulop Mark" 
>Subject: Spirit Manifestations
>To: sdanet@jill.sdanet.org
>Sender: sdanet

Observing the limited discussion of Steve's post of the Albany revival, it
seems to me that this subject is one that lacks the depth of understanding by
the net at large...Our knowledgeable friend Bille Burdick excluded of course
:).  I mean, I was completely oblivious to the local "problem" in Albany and
even of the TBN/Vineyard repackaging/promotion of the old holy roller
content.  The limited knowledge that I do have basically has been gleaned
from the posts to date.  But the descriptions were enough to make me pause
and ponder and as you might expect, make a few observations.

1)  I would want to agree with Steve when he acknowledges that any mystical
or charismatic manifestations are black or white.  Either from God or Satan.
Clearly there is that middle ground that includes the power of our own mind
and the power of suggestion.  This point must temper us from over-reacting
out of fear that all charismatic experiences as being adamantly from Satan.

2)  When we look to the sda church and the propriety of embracing charismatic
experiences, we cannot forget that we come from a church history rich in
charismatic experiences including, prophecy, slaying of the spirit, etc...
One only need to re-read the biographical sketch in the first volume of the
testimonies to see that our church leaders embraced of such charasmata.

3)  We must also acknowledge that in the same volume of the testimonies, we
read about "fanatical" extremes in charismatic experiences  with such
pejorative phases as "false talking in tongues,"  "noisy exercises,"
"reckless, disorderly spirit of fanaticism," being used to describe the
excesses.  Stern condemnation follows these descriptions.

4)  As a result, it is difficult to organizationally "condemn" the Albany
experience because there is enough written evidence to support or deny the
charismatic in our church.  Unfortunately the experience in Albany will
probably be judged solely based on point 3 and point 2 will be ignored.

5)  On the other hand, those who have experienced this perceived "outpouring"
of the spirit will feel convinced that their experiences are genuine,
biblical and God inspired.

So again, we face a dilemma that could well polarize as least the Albany
Conference, and in an age of decentralized communication, such an experience
could "infect" other parts of the globe as well.

Having said all of this, I would like to observe that we are really talking
about the shadow of the really important theological discussion.  When the
dear lady Ellen was condemning the excesses of charasmata, she observed
something like, when the feelings are gone and the mundane returns, there is
the potential of a sinking to a low in their experience.

To me the danger is not in the charismatic experiences but in the fact that
charismatic experiences can become the basis of a faith experience with God.
Wild excess are those becoming addicted to the feelings associated with being
carried away in "holy laughter," etc... much like the drug abuser is addicted
to a substance.  But I am not talking about that.  Far more insidious, is for
us to wrongfully believe that God's presence is based upon experience, happy
feelings, and physical manifestations.  I know some who have shipwrecked
their faith because when the storms of random or intentional tragedy come,
the cry goes unanswered, "Where is God."  And it is in that silence that
faith can be crushed.

I believe that we do a dis-service to our church by perpetuating the myth
that God is somehow experientially connected to us by a charismatic or
otherwise oversimplified experience-based measure.  I mean Albany is nothing
more than an operational demonstration of the hymn we sing that "He walks
with me and talks with me along life's merry way."  The danger in all of the
general church teachings and the excess of Albany, is that we set ourselves
up to judge our salvation relationship by the experience of God who "whispers
in my ear" whether to walk left or right.

Faith is more based on what we do when God is silent than based on how He is
manifest.  So perhaps it is time that we start looking at bad theology that
provides the fertile soil for such confusing and mystifying dilemmas to grow
in.

_____________________________________________________________________

Mark Fulop                             fulop_mark@mailgw.sdsu.edu
San Diego



>From sdanet  Mon Mar 27 16:54:49 1995
>From: Bille Burdick 
>Subject: Re: The Albany revival(Experimental Religion??)
>To: sdanet@jill.sdanet.org
>Date: Sun, 26 Mar 1995 22:41:39 -0500 (EST)
In-Reply->To:  from "R\
ichard Thompson" at Mar 23, 95 08:49:04 pm
MIME-Version: 1.0
>Sender: sdanet

Richard Thompsen wrote:
> I notice that the term experimental religion is used.
> I always knew about EXPERIENTIAL religion, but this term is new to me. Is
> there some confusion here or is experimental religion the one you're
> talking about.

I haven't yet checked the egw rom on experiential...however, *experimental*
is the correct word for the egw statements mentioned by other netters.  With
you, I think that experiential is used more commonly now, and how much
overlap they have in meaning in general usage, I wouldn't want to hazard a
guess.  There is a definite difference between the technical use of
experiential religion and what egw meant by experimental.

Experiential is used by theologians to refer to a religion which is *based*
on experience rather than on scripture.  It is important that we understand
the difference between a religious experience which is based on scripture,
and a religion based on experience.  In the one, we study scripture to learn
what scripture has to say, then we interpret our experiences in light of
those principles.  In the other, we look at our experience and decide
whether scripture is true on the basis of how it fits with our experience.

I printed out a number of the statements egw makes using "experimental
religion".  In *all* of these it is clear that she is talking about a
scripture based religion which is brought into our daily life and actions.
She uses it in contrast to someone who "knows the truth" but does not bring
it into their life.  Experiment is in the sense of reading to see how the
Bible says to live...then "experimenting" to see how living in that way can
be worked out in our lives.

In no case does she use the term to mean anything like the "experiences"
which have been described in connection with the situation at Albany.

> FWIW, I think that even our interpretation of the Bible is based on our
> experience of God. I knew every proof text for every major belief, but I
> saw the Bible in a whole different way when I became a Christian (ie
> experienced God for myself and knew who he was.)

I hope you didn't mean the first sentence just as you stated it.  From the
rest of your paragraph I get the impression that your knowledge of the Bible
was first....but that knowledge took on a new dimension when you brought it
into your own life experiences.  If so, then this is what EGW would call
"experimenting" with the word of God.
experimenting" with the word of God.

--
Bille Burdick                                                 615-472-5176
McDonald TN 37353                                  (bburdick@southern.edu)

                                                                  



>From sdanet  Mon Mar 27 16:56:43 1995
>From: Bille Burdick 
>Subject: Re: The Albany revival
>To: sdanet@jill.sdanet.org
>Date: Sun, 26 Mar 1995 23:33:57 -0500 (EST)
In-Reply->To: <9503241531.AA12746@firefly.prairienet.org> from "Paul Beedle" at\
 Mar 24, 95 09:31:46 am
MIME-Version: 1.0
>Sender: sdanet

Paul Beedle wrote:
> bille replied:
> >
> >This is a copout.  There are direct instructions in scripture to test the
> >spirits.  There are direct warnings in scripture about satan appearing as an
> >angel of light.  There are other warnings about lying wonders and miracles
> >that God will allow Satan to work.  There are warnings of deceptions which
> >will be come close to deceiving the very elect...and the implication seems
> >to be that some who thought they were elect will be deceived by them.
>    [snip other questions along this line]
>
> absolutely, we must test the spirits... but how?  Jesus says, "by their fruit\
s
> ye shall know them."  i follow no preacher who is in open sin and who does
> not teach the 7th day sabbath (among other things).  i choose to make my
> judgments based upon sound biblical doctrine.  there are plenty of other
> areas in the lives of these men (love of money, etc.) that are concrete,
> rather than attacking specific manifestations.

I'm sorry Paul...you have lost me here.  I was talking about testing the
*spirit* that was apparently causing "supernatural manifestations".  This
has nothing to do with the personal lives or teachings of specific
*individuals*.  I am not at all talking of judging specific preachers as
to the doctrines they are teaching...and I don't know what you mean by
following a preacher, etc.  What we are talking about relative to the
Albany church, is in fact, the claims that certain physical manifestations
are due to the direct acts of the Holy Spirit.  These are manifestations
which have been acted out more fully in the churches from whence they
came...particularly from John Wimber's Vineyard Fellowships (which have been
very prominent in promoting the teachings and practice of Rodney
Howard-Browne, and from some specific representatives of the Word-Faith
Movement.

>  unless you can speak to a
> specific manifestation (as Jesus did in the wilderness, as paul did on his
> way to damascus), how can you judge it?  what we _can_ do is warn people that
> the devil can counterfeit miracles and that the messenger must speak accordin\
g
> to "the law and the testimony."

I'm not sure what you mean "speak *to* a specific manifestation".  Steve has
described some specific manifestations that have occured in Albany.  I have
posted an article that describes in some detail some of the manifestations
that have been included in the Vinyard "Renewal" movement.  Yet almost
without exception, you and others who have posted on this subject have
turned aside from looking straight at these manifestations and asking the
question....is this biblical?  Is it reasonable to look at this
manifestation and judge that this is the direct, overpowering action of the
Holy Spirit?

It is not that it is a new thing!  While it is true that the past summer saw
a tremendous upsurge of those specific manifestations which Rodney
Howard-Browne has been promoting, the excesses of the Word-Faith Movement
have been with us for years.  The Third Wave of the Spirit has been
identified and named and written about for over 7 years, and Peter Wagner,
who has written on it extensively says it goes back to at least 1980.  Yet,
when I try to engage even professional sda scholars in dialogue on this
subject, they claim never to have heard of it!

Steve tells us that the Albany church has been involved in this since last
fall...yet teachers of ministers say they don't know anything about it, and
haven't heard of it being in Adventism....at the same time other teachers
report that groups near or on their campus are caught up in it.

There is a time to be gentle and give everyone the benefit of the doubt and
not judge any one harshly.  There is also a time to investigate what is
being taught among us and examine it in relation to scripture and to other
religions of the world....and see where it really fits.  Yet I'm hearing
people say, not only that I don't know what is going on....but "I refuse"
to judge this Movement.

>>I think you should check the reference and the context.  Yes, Ellen White
>>said we should have experimental religion....but by that she did *not* mean
>>that our religion should be grounded upon our experiments.  Nor did she mean
>>that we should refuse to identify by searching the scriptures whether what
>>we see with our eyes and handle with our hands and feel with our emotions is
>>of God or of Satan.  Ellen White was not one to see Satan behind every bush,
>>nor as responsible for every sin....but she was also not one to refuse to
>>call sin by its right name.
>>
>
> quite true.  this is a good balancing statement.  tell me though, is it
> possible we are quenching the true manifestation of the holy Spirit by
> being too afraid of the devil to experiment?

As I mentioned in another post....when egw spoke of "experimenting" she was
*not* speaking of experimenting with supernatural manifestations.  She was
talking about "experimenting" with the truths of the Bible in the sense of
talking about "experimenting" with the truths of the Bible in the sense of
using its principles by which to conduct the "experiment" of how to live our
lives today.

Can you really have a question about the kind of spirit that would cause a
woman to flop around on the floor so she had to be covered in order to not
indecently expose herself?  Come man....put some rational thought and what
you know to be true of the Spirit of God into this topic!  As for me and my
house....we are much more fearful of insulting the Holy Spirit by thinking
that He would act in such a manner than we are in "quenching" Him!

--
Bille Burdick                                                 615-472-5176
McDonald TN 37353                                  (bburdick@southern.edu)

>Subject: Re: Albany Revival
>To: sdanet@jill.sdanet.org
>Date: Mon, 27 Mar 1995 00:30:39 -0500 (EST)
In-Reply->To: <199503261657.LAA04664@jill.sdanet.org> from "SDA Net" at Mar 26,\
 95 11:56:57 am
MIME-Version: 1.0
>Sender: sdanet

Steve Timm wrote:
> In the past weeks at Albany, I now have more information, but I still don't
> know quite what to make of it.  I have seen people receive special prayer
> and fall down under what they believe to be the power of the Holy Spirit
> (and nobody pushed them).
> I have seen people receive prayer and not fall down, even though they were
> wanting to do so.  What I do know is that the phenomenon of falling down
> cannot be viewed in isolation from the rest of the movement.

I have a certain amount of deja vu when Steve writes of his experiences in
Albany.

The year was 1973.  We were house and church hunting in New York.  We
decided on one, bought a house in that area, and transferred our
membership.  Not until a few months after we completed the transaction did
we learn the history of that church over the preceding few years.

It had started innocently enough.  The church rented their facility to a
pentecostal group for Sunday services and midweek prayer meetings.  They
were a friendly group, and after a while there was some visiting back and
forth.  The pentacostals were good renters.  They even helped with some
improvements to the sanctuary...specifically with a sound system including
earphone and recorder jacks in the front pews for the hard of hearing.

Eventually the sdas learned that the pentecostals were using these to tape
the Sabbath sermons...so the pentecostal preacher could refute any points
that he disagreed with in his Sunday service.  Members began attending the
pentecostal mid-week meetings, a warm spirit of comaraderie developed, and
soon the sda service "warmed up" with audible expressions of praise, etc.
This moved along until some sdas were "baptized in the Spirit" and began
talking in tongues.

The sda church was divided in its opinion.  Some appealed to the
conference.  The brethren consulted with the pastor, who assured them
everything was ok...and the brethren went back to their office.  It was
about an even split...one elder thought it was great....another thought it
was satanic...one SS supt, encouraged it, another one fought it.  It finally
reached the crisis point when the wife of the non-believing elder broke out
into glossalalia in the midst of a service....against her will, for she
believed it was not of God, but of satan.  At that point, those desiring to
remain non-charismatic sdas prevailed upon the brethren, and a new pastor
was sent to help them work things out.

The old pastor, an elder, a SS supt, and others chose to go with the
pentecostals rather than remaining sda.  By the time we arrived on the
scene, the split was completed, the pentecostals had withdrawn, and of the
formalities, only the acting upon the last of the names that had withdrawn
remained to be done.  Every family in the church had lost at least one
member.  The wounds were beginning to heal...but the losses seemed permanent.

Of course, this was over 20 years ago....the manifestations then were simple
and sedate compared with those we are hearing about now.

> . . .  I have been present
> when special prayer  was offered for people that did not receive healing.
> Although it was never stated that such a person didn't have enough faith
> to claim the healing, some of the prayers did ask "give her enough faith
> to grasp the healing>"

This is "straight doctrine" in the various branches of the Word-Faith
Movement.  The directions are to "have faith in your faith"...and if you
don't receive the blessing...healing...or whatever, it is because you didn't
have enough faith.  The idea of there being an intrinsic power in one's
faith, rather than faith being one's committment to a powerful God, is
exactly what separates the Word-Faith Movement from biblical Christianity.
I have been amazed to hear this concept presented in sda meetings recently.

> I also note that in this ministry and others, most of the healings that
> have been claimed are from chronic diseases or things which are not easily
> verifiable.

This is typical of the Word-Faith Healers.  Medical and other neutral
researchers have searched in vain for documentation for claimed healings.
OTOH, there is ample evidence of those who claimed healing who either died
or had to continue living with their medical problems.

> If this sounds quite a bit different than the Adventist church you signed up
> for, let me tell you that it sounds quite a bit different than the Adventist
> church I signed up for as well.

Ah yes....for at least 50 years of my life, I thought of the Adventist
church as a Reformation church.  When I was taught, as well as when I
taught, we claimed as sdas to be the culmination of the Reformation.  Now I
hear ministers and evangelists pointing us to the Pentecostal brethren as
examples of what we should be.

> I am wondering many things and in a way I am caught between the admonishings
> in the Bible that it is an "evil and adulterous generation that asks for a si\
gn"
> and the counsel to prove all things and test the spirits.   So far I am still
> holding to the counsel to prove all things.

I don't understand what you mean by saying you are "caught between"...to my
mind these are both different ways of saying the same thing....these
"signs", these "manifestations".... many are seeking, contrary to the
twin injunctions to *not* ask for a sign....and to test whatever claims to
be a spirit from God.

> I have faith in God that if
> it comes time for an encounter with the Holy Spirit,He will make clear to
> me that this is the time that I must accept or reject it.  It also occurs
> to me that the falling down can be easily faked, or induced under strong
> emotional pressure or the power of suggestion.

I am a little uncomfortable when you say "He will make clear to me"....how
will He show you?  I think the Holy Spirit makes these things known to us
when we "search the scriptures to see whether these things are so."  The
counsel we have from egw is that we can expect God to do fewer miracles in
the last days....not more....because of the confusion that might result
since He will allow satan more freedom to interact more openly with humans.

> In fact, I wonder if to some SDA's the Holy Spirit just becomes another form
> of works, another "thing" they can do to enhance their walk with Christ.
                                                                               
It is certainly true that it seems most attractive to the mainline or
right-wing pious to superpious of the church.

--
Bille "RipVanWinkle" Burdick

Who went to sleep one night in a Protestant church....and woke one morning
to find herself in a Charismatic church!



>From sdanet  Wed Mar 29 18:39:40 1995
>From: Bille Burdick 
>Subject: Re: Spirit Manifestations part1
>To: sdanet@sdanet.org
>Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 17:15:34 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
>Sender: sdanet

I'd like to preface my response to Mark's post with a comment.  I have been
criticized for being judgemental on the individuals involved in the Albany
situation...one person even mis-quoting me to make me seem to be pointing
the finger at individuals.  I would like to make it clear that I am
attempting to move the focus *from* any individual...in fact, from the
Albany church as a whole.  What we have heard about the situation there is
very sketchy....but it does reference other movements that are currently
abroad in the Christian world today, as well as some tendencies within the
whole sda community.  It is the larger questions on the more extensive
phenomena that I have been addressing...and am continuing to address in
this and the next post.

Mark Fulop wrote:
> Observing the limited discussion of Steve's post of the Albany revival,
> . . .  . . . the descriptions were enough to make me pause and
> ponder and as you might expect, make a few observations.

> 1)  I would want to agree with Steve when he acknowledges that any
> mystical or charismatic manifestations are black or white.  Either from
> God or Satan.  Clearly there is that middle ground that includes the power
> of our own mind and the power of suggestion.  This point must temper us
> from over-reacting out of fear that all charismatic experiences as being
> adamantly from Satan.

Yes, this is a vital point...and it is one which emphasises again that the
only safe guide is to compare present experience, whether our own or that
which we observe, with scripture.  There are several things that make
discernemt difficult.  1) Because the Holy Spirit acts through the natural
processes of our minds, most of His activity is indistinguishable from the
action of our own rational faculties.  2) We are mostly unaware of the
complete cause of many of our reactions, so our actions may be the result
of some sub-consciously held suggestion or motive rather than being direct
conscious decision.  3) We have tended to take one of two extreme positions
on satanic influences...either focusing on satan too much, or discounting
him too much...rather than studying the subject carefully so we have some
criteria by which to judge such experiences.

> 2)  When we look to the sda church and the propriety of embracing
> charismatic experiences, we cannot forget that we come from a church
> history rich in charismatic experiences including, prophecy, slaying of
> the spirit, etc... One only need to re-read the biographical sketch in the
> first volume of the testimonies to see that our church leaders embraced of
> such charasmata.

And the thing that makes this so problematic is that we have not examined
these early experiences in the light of scripture and history from an
unbiased view.  These have mainly been referenced by those who were "trying
to prove something"...either by "debunkers of history" who cast aspersions
on some of the participants, or by those of a Charismatic inclination who
wanted to use them as justification for seeking those kinds of experiences
today.

> 3)  We must also acknowledge that in the same volume of the testimonies,
> we read about "fanatical" extremes in charismatic experiences  with such
> pejorative phases as "false talking in tongues,"  "noisy exercises,"
> "reckless, disorderly spirit of fanaticism," being used to describe the
> excesses.  Stern condemnation follows these descriptions.

Exactly.  After those initial experiences, we have nothing but condemnation
for the same types of experiences which occurred earlier.  Comparing this
with my reading from those Christians who have come out of Eastern or new
age cults leads me to the tentative conclusion that this may best be
reconciled by seeing it as an example of the way God meets people where they
are...but then leads them away from where they were.

I think of one Christian researcher who, before he became a Christian, was
into the drug scene and moving into the new age scene.  Among his
experiences were drug or meditation induced moments of precognition.  As
he began questioning in his mind about the Christian God, he had similar
episodes of precognition in which he "knew" that if he took a certain course
of action it would result in him coming in contact with Christians who would
explain Christianity to him.  He did and they did.  But once they had
introduced him to scripture, these episodes of precognition ceased.

Numerous similar experiences lead me to conclude that since in our
beginnings many of those who were banding together came from churches which
recognized certain phenomena as indicating the special presence of the
Spirit, that God met them in that way.  His Spirit was in the phenomena.
But as soon as they were more firmly grounded in scripture, He no longer
used that method of contact.  Those who persisted in seeking for it went
into fanaticism (either self or spirit controlled) which the leaders
recognized as being error.  Those who became the SDA church turned from
those kinds of experiences to a religion based on a rational understanding
of scripture...which, as committment was made to walking in God's way, led
to a *practical* experience in the things of God...practical as contrasted
with charismatic.  What is interesting is that He seemingly used His
continued limited contact with Ellen White as a vehicle through which to
give warnings against seeking either the non-cognitive manifestations of the
Spirit (charismatic), but also against seeking a universal extra-cognitive
(prophetic) contact with Him such as He was giving through White at the
time.

The key operative word may turn out to be "seeking".  If God indeed does
meet people where they are and leads them from that to scripture, then
perhaps for those who already are grounded in scripture to turn from that
to seek experiences of a supernatural manifestation type is to turn backward
from the way God wishes to lead us.

> 5)  On the other hand, those who have experienced this perceived
> "outpouring" of the spirit will feel convinced that their experiences are
> genuine, biblical and God inspired.

The key word here is "feel", though it is also experienced as an inner
"knowing" beyond rational analysis.  Where ever one finds this type of
manifestations, be it within the Christian church, or within Eastern or
new age cults...the operative word is the wonderful emotions of peace,
love, and joy which the person feels in the moment or as the result of
encounter.  There is also the instantaneously imparted conviction of a
knowledge not gained by analytical means that accompanies experiences of
the supernatural type....within any of these philosophies.
When I read these Christian accounts of their experiences I am reminded of
many new age writers and reporters who describe this same experience.  I
think specifically of the comments reported from the Ramtha devotees, who
explained their reaction to J Z Knight's seminars in which she channeled the
ancient warrior named Ramtha.  They spoke in the same terms as do those who
have experienced the "Renewal" manifestations...of the wonderful feelings of
love, joy, peace, and power.

If we consult scripture, we find that while some of these are fruits of the
Spirit, they are not expressed in scripture as being merely emotional
*feelings*.  Egw is very specific on the point that feeling is never to be
taken as indicative of either our faith or the rightness or wrongness of an
experience.

It is this point that Mark has brought to our attention that makes it so
vitally important for us to examine manifestations claiming to have
supernatural origins from a distance, comparing them objectively with
scripture, before we find ourselves captivated by them in a way that makes
us resistant to questioning them.
--
Bille Burdick                                                 615-472-5176
McDonald TN 37353                                  (bburdick@southern.edu)
                                                                      


>From sdanet  Sat Apr  1 17:22:15 1995
>From: Bille Burdick 
>Subject: Re: Albany, #7 & Elton John
>To: sdanet@jill.sdanet.org
>Date: Sat, 1 Apr 1995 02:23:34 -0500 (EST)
In-Reply->To: <199504010307.WAA04192@jill.sdanet.org> from "SDA Net" at Mar 31,\
 95 10:07:03 pm
MIME-Version: 1.0
>Sender: sdanet


>> Mark Fulow writes
>> What's my point.  It amazes me how many times people look to God for magic.
>> Wether it is the kind of praying for a new job or praying for the baptism of
>> the holy spirit, in tounges, laughter, slayings in the spirit.  It is all
>> the same. Hocus pocus!
>>
>> Only Bille had touched the spiritual question I posed the other day.  Why do
>> we as a church insist on teaching a magical view of God, that if we pray har\
d
>> enough or incantate the right words, we will realize some magical benefit of
>> faith.  Subtley, we teach it in the hymn, "He walks with me and talks with m\
e
>> along life's merry way."  Overtly we teach it by saying, "If we would only,
>> Let God take control of the steering wheel, we will never crash"  and now,
>> "If we only pray hard enough or get touched by someone spiritual enough, we
>> will receive the holy ghost"
>>
>> When is it that we will get back to the Bible and as Bille suggests, start
>> looking for what scripture says about the abiding presence of God who has
>> given us the power of choice and the framework of responsibility that will
>> lead to the gentle restoration to His image, and give up our "like totally
>> bogus view of God the magician."
>>
Steve Timm wrote:
> Mark, I think too long the SDA church as been overly skewed too far towards
> just the position you advocate.

Bille here:
Steve, to make the statement you have made here says that either you are
misunderstanding what both Mark and I have been saying...or else you have
been raised in a totally different SDA church than the one in which I was
raised and in which I have lived all my life.

I agree with Mark that it has been some time since we have given the clear
words of scripture either the importance and reverence which they deserve
or the study which it takes to be not only founded upon scripture, but
also grounded and bounded by the words of scripture.

> There is no magic and no room for magic within the SDA church.

Would that this were true!  Scripture does not teach magic.  Magic, by
definition, is that which does not follow the laws of cause and effect.
Magic down through the centuries has applied to those false systems of
religion that have given formulas rather than cognitive bases for faith.
Magic even today is being sold primarily by those who claim overtly that
we are moving into a post-Christian era...and hail the revival of the
pagan magical systems!

> The church that was founded on a disappointment
> sings not of "life's merry way" as you have misquoted but of
> "life's narrow way."
> "life's narrow way."

So Mark distorts the actual words of the song to make his point...that does
not change the truth of his accusation.  And the facts are that the SDA
church, in spite of the current unwise focus on history rather than His
Story, was founded not *on* disappointment, but *in spite of*
disappointment.  The SDA church was founded upon the Bible and the God of
the Bible who says "Come. Let us reason together".

> The SDA church recognizes no sacrements.

The SDA church recognizes the God and the processes of salvation of which
the sacraments are only faint reminders.

> Religion is all *believe* and no *experience*.

Religion is experience which is based upon and judged by belief....not
belief which is based upon and judged by experience!

> Emotionally our pastors teach us not to trust our emotions.

Cognitively our pastors teach us not to put our trust in our emotions, but
to put our trust in the God who made our intellect and will help us control
our emotions.  This is not the same as to say we are not to experience or
to use our emotions in ways that are rationally appropriate to a given
situation.

> Religion is something to *do*, not something to *feel*.

Absolutely.  Religion is something you *do*.....doing right will lead to
feeling right...but one's religion and one's standing with God is neither
determined nor constructed of one'e emotions!

> So is it any wonder that if a sign and/or wonder does occur, Adventists
> get bent out of shape and start an emotional "revival"?  One happens
> yearly at Andrews, or so.

Adventists who are solidly grounded in the Word of God do not get bent out
of shape and start an emotional revival....only those who are disatisfied
with a religion that expects them to take responsibility for rational
thought and action and instead *seek* for signs and wonders do this.

> The symptoms of "magic" come not from
> overused emotions, but underused emotions that are not prepared
> to experience the joy and love of the presence of God, nor to experience
> the letdown that follows after the great experience.

The experience that comes from the sure word of God has both mountain
heights and valley lows.  It is also an experience that tempers the highs
and mitigates the lows so that life is not an emotional roller coaster.
Symptoms of magic come from dabbling in magic...and these practices are
unequivocally condemned in both Old and New Testaments!

> I wish I had a dollar for every time I have heard an SDA pastor
> use emotional manipulation to make his point  (which is often the
> point of *not* trusting your emotions.)  "Your name may already have
> come up in the judgment."  "Jesus could come for you tonight...."

You are stretching the truth to make a point...Adventists do not teach that
your name may have come up in judgement before the close of earth's
probation.  The second statement is fact...the uncertainty of life is with
us constantly.  This may effect you emotionally...but that is because your
intellect recognizes it as the fact which it is.

> I submit that if we indeed have a God who "walks with us and talks
> with us" all the time, then what appears to the casual observer to be
> supernatural will be natural for us.  Emotions will not be surprised
> out of disuse if they have been used all along in the everyday life
> as we communicate God's love to people

That is right.  Neither will we be surprised by non-biblical signs and
wonders into turning from a plain Thus saith the Lord in Scripture to a
fascination with unexplainable non-cognitive experiences that are beneath
the dignity of the actions of the Holy Spirit as described in Scripture.
As I have pointed out before...in a time of earth's history when spirits
are openly seeking those with whom they communicate, and when from nursery
school to business seminar to new age promoter we are being bombardes with
different means of having a literal spirit guide who will speak to us in
ways that are cognitively recognizeable as coming from outside ourselves,
it is not a time to lightly throw such phrases as "walks with me and talks
with me" around, without bounding them tightly by scriptural restrictions.

> So although I disagree with Mark on the cause of the problem being
> not enough magic rather than too much, I think the cure may be
> very close to what he suggested--a Bible-based approach that
> recognizes and celebrates the immanent presence of God in
> our everyday lives.

Take another look.  That is not what Mark suggested, nor what I had said...
that he was accurately reflecting.

>> When is it that we will get back to the Bible and as Bille suggests, start
>> looking for what scripture says about the abiding presence of God who has
>> given us the power of choice and the framework of responsibility that will
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> lead to the gentle restoration to His image, and give up our "like totally
>> bogus view of God the magician."

A Bible-based approach to religion recognizes the importance of the action
of our understanding and our wills in applying to our lives the principles
found in scripture.  And while it recognizes an immanent aspect to the
cooperation of Divine agencies as we attempt to understand and do the will
of God...it directs the focus to a God who is high and lifted up and
majestic and who is a God separate and exterior to us....who would *die*
rather than manipulate us *or* our emotions or actions...but who guards
our freedom of decision making so that we may intellectually choose those
thoughts and actions and emotions that are in harmony with His will as
described in scripture.

The church I was baptized into 53 years ago, and have been growing within
for all those years, both in understanding and experience, is NOT a church
of magic.  It is a church of reason and decision, which when diligently
applied to life's problems, gives the quiet joy of satisfaction of being
within the will of God rather than unreasoned hilarity or other hysterical
phenomena that claim, without scriptural proof, to be from a spirit some
call holy.

It is a church which has been remiss in calling attention to the scriptural
passages which warn of unholy spirits who will come and manifest themselves
for the express purpose of deceiving the very elect.  Let's get back to the
Bible and heed its warnings as well as claiming its promises!

--
Bille Burdick                                                 615-472-5176
McDonald TN 37353                                  (bburdick@southern.edu)

                                                                            

>From sdanet  Fri Mar 31 21:29:32 1995
>Date: 31 Mar 1995 15:20:33 U
>From: "Fulop Mark" 
>Subject: Albany, #7 & Elton John
>To: "SDA Net" 
>Sender: sdanet

As I continue to listen to the posts on Albany, I am struck with a recent
conversation with some work mates who recently attended a sold out concert
featuring Elton John and Billy Joel (This post is not about backmasking).

At the four hour concert my workmates sat next to a lady with a jesus lives
tattoo on her arm who said in typical california speak "I mean it was
ttotally like God wanted me at this concert, y'kno, I mean there was this
cool contest on the radio? you call up to win free tickets?! get this, ! I
call this station like three or four times and don't get through
ani'mthinkin, hang up, why bother, But I think it's God -- y'kno, keeps
tellin me dial and on the 7th time I get through and hey dude, like i'm
here!.  It was God!  Imean afterall, 7 is God's lucky number...Forreal!"

My workmates, knowing that i was schooled in religion, ask me, what's the
deal with the number 7?  And I have to explain to them that the number seven,
according to some, is a symbolic number associated with God.  But then I
hastened to add, It is not however, a magical number.  You want magic go to
sophie the psychic...no wait sophie has been charged with rackettering  and
bilking a bunch of people out of serious money.

What's my point.  It amazes me how many times people look to God for magic.
Wether it is the kind of praying for a new job or praying for the baptism of
the holy spirit, in tounges, laughter, slayings in the spirit.  It is all the
same. Hocus pocus!

Only Bille had touched the spiritual question I posed the other day.  Why do
we as a church insist on teaching a magical view of God, that if we pray hard
enough or incantate the right words, we will realize some magical benefit of
faith.  Subtley, we teach it in the hymn, "He walks with me and talks with me
along life's merry way."  Overtly we teach it by saying, "If we would only,
Let God take control of the steering wheel, we will never crash"  and now,
"If we only pray hard enough or get touched by someone spiritual enough, we
will receive the holy ghost"

When is it that we will get back to the Bible and as Bille suggests, start
looking for what scripture says about the abiding presence of God who has
given us the power of choice and the framework of responsibility that will
lead to the gentle restoration to His image, and give up our "like totally
bogus view of God the magician."

_____________________________________________________________________

Mark Fulop                             fulop_mark@mailgw.sdsu.edu
San Diego
                                                                            
>From sdanet  Fri Mar 31 17:30:34 1995
>Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 16:24:12 +0300 (EET DST)
>From: Arto J Hoikkala 
>To: timm@jill.sdanet.org
>Subject: Re: The Albany revival (fwd)
In-Reply->To: <199503280635.JAA12955@beta.hut.fi>
MIME-Version: 1.0
>Sender: sdanet


Hello Steve.

This is a reply to your mail that you posted to SDANET. My girlfried
(Ursa Helanko, uhelanko@snakemail.hut.fi) forwarded this to me and
I decided to reply.

My name is Arto Hoikkala. I'm 23 years old Christian (non SDA).
I've been Christian only about 4 years although I have Christian
backround due my mother. Last two years I've attended to a church
which doesn't belong to any denomination. That church doesn't have
any official (or even unofficial!) doctrine. Also, we don't have
strong enought teaching and that's why I have had to learn most
doctrine by reading Bible and Christian books. From my spiritual
father and mother I have learned much about Christian life though
(which has been very important for me - for example to keep me out of
concentrating intellectually on doctrines too much :-)

A harsh classification for my faith is that I am a Charismathic Lutheran.
But that's just a harsh classification. I have learned a lot by reading
books from Watchman Nee, Juan Carlos Ortiz, Merlin Carothers, John White
and some Finnish and Swedish preachers.

> > All that I ask from a church is that they need me and they feed me,
> > and Albany has done both of these things in abundance.  I know that
> > the sequence of 1) finding I would be in Albany for the summer at least
> > 2) deciding to transfer my membership based on a youth-originated call for \
help
> > 3) having this situation which has been going since last October blow
> >     up into the public is not a coincidence.
                                                                                

Yeah. God really knows how to plan our way. Last summer when I was touched
by God's power He really did prepare me for that. About half year before
that I was really depressed and almost without hope. About one and half
month before my "being filled by the Spirit"-experience two friends of
mine prophecised that God would pour His spirit on me (Prophecies aren't
very common in my church). Two weeks after that I was really desperate and
I prayed God. For the first time in my life I somehow "heard" God speaking
into my thoughts and talking with me. He then told that He will change my
life. I just asked how could it happen because I am what I am. He told
that _He_ will do it, that's how it happens. Also He said that He will do
it very soon. I cried. One week later this same episode happened again.
Two weeks after that I felt lead to subscribe New-Wine -maillist which
talked about Toronto Blessing (or God's manifest precense). I had been on
that list about a week when I went to a Lutheran worship-meeting.
Surprisingly there were a guest speaker from London and when he prayed for
the whole congregation (about 1000 people) I started to "move" (I don't
know the correct word) from side to side. I doubted but I wasn't afraid
since I had learned that God can touch people this way. The preacher
called those people who know that God is touching them to the front. I
went and as the preacher prayed for all of us many of us fell down. I
waited for about 5-15 minutes and then God touched my body and my mind. I
shaked and laughed and fell to ground. I was happy and my depression
went totally away. I couldn't lift myself from the pit but God did it
so wonderfully that I'm really thankfull for Him.

> > It is tearing me up to see a conference administration
> > which I know and respect and a church family which I have already grown
> > to love, on a collision course.  There's enough blame and fault to go aroun\
d.
> > Pray for us that there will also be enough of God's mercy to go around.

Oh... God... Help us... Share your divine light here... Don't let anyone
to be in darkness... Open our eyes to see your love and will... We have
already rejected you so many times... Please grab us and lift us up -
don't let us stumble onto our own feet... Show us your love... and your
will... In Jesus name... In wonderfull Jesus name...

> > I would also welcome your advice, public or private, on this matter.

Seek for the Lord... Don't be lead by anyone to reject God's work... even
if those people God uses aren't perfect... they definetly aren't but
don't let it blind you from seeing God's hand.

> > So:  the theological questions

OK. I haven't got the Bible in my hands right now but I'am trying to
answer anyway. So, if I "quote" the Bible, it means that I remember
something from the Finnish translation of the Bible and then try to write
it in English. (And as you may have noticed I do not write English very
well ;-)

> > 1) Is having the Holy Spirit in you and being baptized by the Holy Spirit
> > two different things?

Personally I doesn't use phrase "being baptized by the Holy Spirit". It is
in the Bible (Acts) and it's not a wrong phrase but it can be easily
misunderstood. The Bible describes this same thing "being baptized by the
Holy Spirit" with at least to other phrases. One is "being filled by the
Spirit" and the other is "Holy Spirit descended unto them". I prefer the
phrase "being filled by the Holy Spirit". "Being touched by the Holy
Spirit" is OK too. Well... phrases are just phrases... lets continue

As far as I can understand the Bible clearly discerns "having the Holy
Spirit" and "being baptized/being filled by the Holy Spirit". According to
the Bible the Holy Spirit is given to every person who believes in Jesus
Christ (Eph. 1:12-13?). Hovewer, from Acts (8?) we read about Samaritans
who believed in Jesus Christ and were baptized and though had been given
the Holy Spirit. Hovewer, "the Spirit hasn't descended unto them". Only
after Peter laid his hands on them they (as I believe) _experienced_ the
touch/fullness of the Holy Spirit. I believe that any Christian can really
be filled with the Spirit (and love) without experiencing anything
spectacular. Hovewer, I understand this chapter in Acts so that apostles
though that having the experience of "being filled by the Spirit" was
important for those who were already believers. It was last summer when I
was filled by the Spirit so that I could "feel and taste" it. I was
greatly encouraged by that experience. I has brought me to take God's love
and His will much more seriously than before.

> > 2)  Is the laying on of hands and praying for the baptism of the Holy Spiri\
t
t
> > still a valid way to receive the Holy Spirit today?  Is it the *only* way
> > to do so?

I believe that "being baptized by the Holy Spirit" isn't the core of
Christianity. Hovewer, I consider it to be encouraging and therefore
desirable experience. Also, I belive that such touch of God can really
change our lives. Laying on of hands is perfectly biblical way of
blessing other so they can be filled by the Spirit.

> > 3)  Is it valid to go to someone and say to them "It *is* definitely
> > God's will that you be healed."

Gee. This one I haven't yet figured out. I have tought it quite long
already. Here's what I believe: I believe that it really is God's will
that every Christian will be healed (of physical or mental illness).
Hovewer, some of us have to wait for resurrection to that be happen ;-)
I believe that it's not God's will that everyone will be healed here
on Earth. It's more clear to think that it's not God's will that everyone
will experience raising from the dead as Lazarus did. So I believe
that healings and raising from the dead are just shades of that life
e are going to see in Heaven. I.e. healings prophecy perfect health
in Heaven. Raising from the dead prophecies resurrection of the saints.
I believe that this is _one_ reason why God heals the wounded and
some times (even in 1995) raises people from the dead. I believe that God
encourages us to see His power which will make everything perfect to
rejoice in Heaven.

> > 4)  Can or does 1 Corinthians 14 refer to any other languages besides
> >     languages that are known by some human people?

;-) I believe it does. I don't personally speak in tongues (other than
those I have learned) but I have friends who do. One of them speaks French
in tongues and once a native French girl studuing French language
translated it for Her. That French girl got saved few weeks after hearing
such language (Just like in Acts 2 :-) Also, my girlfriend who is an SDA
speaks in tongues and we have so far recogniced that language.

> > 5)  Is the baptism of the Holy Spirit something that every believer *can& h\
ave?
> >     Is it something that every believer *must* have?

Well. Every believer should be filled by the Holy Spirit every day but
to have a "being filled by the Holy Spirit"-experience... I believe that
it's desirable but definately not a must!

> > Steve Timm

Arto

                        |
Arto.Hoikkala@hut.fi  --|--  Armahdettu ja matkalla taivaaseen.
ahoi@snakemail.hut.fi   |     Vapautettu el{m{{n jo ennen sit{.
                        |
                                                                        
>From sdanet  Fri Mar 31 17:30:17 1995
>Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 22:20:08 +0300 (EET DST)
>From: Arto J Hoikkala 
>To: Steve Timm 
cc: Ursa H Helanko 
>Subject: Re: The Albany revival (fwd)
In-Reply->To: <199503281423.JAA14255@jill.sdanet.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
>Sender: sdanet

On Tue, 28 Mar 1995, Steve Timm wrote:

> Arto,
> Thanks for your message of concern and your prayers, also your insights.
> They are very helpful right now. I ask that you would please continue
> to hold Albany in your prayers especially during the next week.

I'll try to keep that in my mind.
I'll try to keep that in my mind.

> I would also welcome your advice, public or private, on this matter.
...
> So:  the theological questions

I have now the Bible with me and I'd like to say some words about theology
again...

Here are two goals in my way of interpreting the Bible:

1) To be open to change my lifestyle according to the Bible. I use the
Bible as the primary quide to Christian faith and life. If I found a
difference beetween my life and the Bible I assume that my life is broken
and not the Bible. (Or my interpretation of the Bible is wrong).

2) To be open to change my interpretation according to my experiences.
Sometimes my (or my friends/trusted people) experiences give a new
interpretation to chapters/verses in the Bible. I want to be open enough
of accepting the new interpretation instead of rejecting my experiences as
unbiblical.

Now... To examine to works of the Holy Spirit in the Bible:

> 1) Is having the Holy Spirit in you and being baptized by the Holy Spirit
> two different things?

Oh, I forgot this in my last mail. I'd like to show THREE different
things: 1) to have the Holy Spirit, 2) to be continuously filled by the
Holy Spirit and 3) to be specially touched by the Holy Spirit (physically
or mentally). While I believe that these three things are different they
can happen at the same time. Also, this is just a theory... in real life
the work of the Holy Spirit doesn't fit in a box. (God's thoughts are not
like man's). Also, these distictions aren't very clearly stated in the
Bible... the wording of the Bible doesn't seem to be always very
consistent.

1) Every man should have the Holy Spirit - That is: to believe in Christ
and born again of the Holy Spirit. That's why we evangelize.

2) Every believer should be filled by the Holy Spirit - That is: to bear
(not make) continuously the fruit of the Spirit. That's why we read the
Bible, pray God and be with each other (These aren't the fruit of the
Spirit but they lead us near to God who gives good fruit into our lives).

3a) Very often this fullness of the Spirit is very related to a phenomena
called "being baptized (touched) by the Holy Spirit". That is: when God
does a really big change in our inside it will often manifest outside us
as falling, crying, laughing etc. That's why we shouldn't discourage
people of having these experiences. That's why we should pray for each
other and be just happy when God manifests Himself in us.

3b) Sometimes the Holy Spirit touches unbelievers too. They may shake and
fall of the power of God. Often these touches bring their witnesses to
salvation.

3c) It's possible to be outwardly touched by the Holy Spirit but reject
God's love despite this. Then we won't see the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Some verses from the Bible (it's usefull to read the whole passages
and not just these verses of course).
* Matt. 3:11, 3:16
* Mark. 1:8
* Luke. 3:16, 4:14, 4:18-19, 11:13
* Joh. 1:12-13, 1:33, 3:5, 14:15-26, 16:7-15
* Acts. 1:8, 2:1-13, 2:37-38, 4:29-31, 6:5, 8:8:14-17, 9:3-4, 9:17-18,
  10:38, 10:44-48, 11:22-24, 19:1-6
* Rom. 5:5, 8:1-6;13, 8:9-11;14-16, 8:23, 12:11
* Gal. 3:5, 5:13-6:1
* Eph. 1:13, 1:19-20, 3:16, 5:18, 6:18
* 1. Thess. 5:19
* 1. Joh. 3:24, 4:1-16

Well... That was the first question. I'll hope that these verses will
clarify your thoughts and encourage you to seek God and His will more.

May God fill your heart with His Holy Spirit to love your church and other
people. May He also touch you with His love so that you can "taste and
see" God's love yourself.

Arto
>
> >Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 15:02:33 -0500 (EST)
> >From: Richard M Riss 

> >Subject: Power of God Hits FM 92
>
>
>
>                                         >Date:     23-Mar-1995 02:33pm EST
>                                         >From:     Riss, Richard M
>                                                   RRISS
>                                         Dept:     GRAD
>                                         Tel No:   (201)-408-8207
>
> TO: Press SH to view recipients.
>
> >Subject: Power of God Hits FM 92
>
>
> January, 1995
>
>
>
> Dear Friend of Christian FM 92:
>
>
> I had already put the finishing touches on my first letter of
> 1995.  I really liked it.  It was full of optimism and
> inspirational resolutions for the New Year.
>
>
> It will never make it to the printer.
>
>
> Instead, I am compelled to offer to you a testimony and witness
> as to a most remarkable day.  I pray that it may serve to
> encourage those who seek God, and terrify those who oppose Him.
>
>
> January 6, 1995 began in a rather ordinary way.  It was Friday,
> it had been a busy week, but I was looking forward to a slow day.
> As I was leaving the house, I actually told my wife "There's not
> much on my calender, I may try to take the afternoon hours off
> and came home early".
>
>
> I had agreed to interview a pastor from St. Louis, Randy Clark
> that morning.  Randy was the guest speaker at The Tabernacle
> Church's renewal services nightly, and since "The Tab" is a good
> friend of FM 92 (and many other area churches were participating
> in the meetings), we had decided to clear a slot on the morning
> show for a brief interview.
>
>
> My guest was one of the leaders of the so-called "Toronto
> Revival".  I had read about the Toronto meetings, but frankly,
> I've heard a lot of "revival rumors" over the years and have
> learned not to pay much attention.  Normally, I don't do the
> interviews myself, but I was feeling cautious and let the
> "morning guys" know I'd be there during the show.
>
>
> The interview was innocent enough at first.  The subject turned
> to a discussion of the Holy Spirit's manifest presence in a
> meeting (as opposed to His presence that dwells within our hearts
> always).  Rather suddenly, something began to happen in the
> control room.
>
>
> It began with Gregg.  he was seated behind me listening, and for
> no apparent reason, he began to weep.  His weeping turned to
> shuddering sobs that he attempted to muffle in his hands.  It was>
> hard to ignore, and Randy paused mid-sentence to comment "You
> can't see him, but God is really dealing with the fellow behind
> you right now."  I looked over my shoulder just in time to see
> Gregg losing control.  He stood up, only to crash to the floor
> directly in front of the console, where he lay shaking for
> several minutes.
>
>
> I don't know if YOU have ever tried to conduct a radio interview
> in such circumstances, but let me assure you I NEVER have.  I was
> mortified.  We have always attempted to avoid any extremes at FM
> 92, so it was difficult to explain to our listeners what was
> happening. I had always known Gregg to act like a professional,
> so i knew something was seriously going on.  I did my best to
> recover the interview under the embarrassing circumstances.  I
> thanked the guest and wrapped it up.  (And thought of ways to
> KILL Gregg later!)
>
>
> After when we have a guest minister in the station, we ask him to
> pray for the staff.  Before Randy Clark left, we asked him to say
> a word of prayer.
>
>
> We formed a circle and began to pray for the staff one by one.
> My eyes were shut, but I heard a thud and opened them to see Bart
> Mazzarella prostrate on the floor.  He had fallen forward on his
> face.  What amazed me most was that Bart was known to be openly
> skeptical.  he simply did not accept such things.  Within
> seconds, another and another staff person went down.  Even those
> that remained standing were clearly shaken.
>
>
> When they prayed for me, I did not "fall down".  What did happen
> was an electric sensation shot down my right arm, and my right
> hand began to tremble uncontrollably.  My heart pounded as I
> became aware of a powerful sense of what can only be called God's
> manifest presence.
>
>
> Remember, our staff is not primarily Charismatic.  We are
> Episcopalian, Nazarene, Evangelical, Pentecostal.... and a couple
> of "not quite sure".  While I personally am associated with an
> Assembly of God church, I'm quite the skeptic when it comes to
> "weird stuff".  I don't watch many evangelists on TV, because too
> often I am turned off by what I see.  This was completely new to
> us.
>
>
> Randy was scheduled elsewhere, so after just a few minutes of
> prayer, he thanked me graciously and left quickly.  Our staff
> remained in the control room, staring at each other wide eyed,
> and hovering over Bart, who still appeared unconscious on the
> floor.  (He was completely immobile for over half an hour).
> There was a sweet atmosphere of worship in the room, so I told
> someone to put one of the integrity Worship CD's on air while we
> continued to pray together.
>
>
> I thought the atmosphere would abate after a few minutes and
> return to normal... but instead, our prayers grew more and more
> intense.  The room became charged in a way that I simply cannot
> describe.  After an hour of this, we realized that it was 10:30,
> the time we normally share our listener's needs in prayer.
>
>
> I switched on the mike, and found myself praying that God would
> touch every listener in a personal way.  After prayer, with great
> hesitation I added "This morning God has really been touching our
> staff, so we've been spending the morning praying together.  If
> you're in a situation right now where you are facing a desperate
> need, just drop by our studios this morning and we'll take a
> minute to pray with you."  This was the first time we had ever
> made such an invitation.
>
>
> This is where everything went haywire.
>
>
> Within a few minutes, a few listeners began to arrive.  The first
> person I prayed with was a tall man who shared with me some
> tremendous needs he was facing.  I told him I would agree with
> him in prayer.  As I prayed for his need, a voice in my head was
> saying "It's a shame that you don't operate in any real spiritual
> gift or power.  Here's a man who really needs to hear from god
> and you've got nothing worth giving him!!"  I continued to pray,
> but I was struggling.  I reached up with my right hand to touch
> his shoulder, when suddenly he shook, and slumped to the floor.
> (He lay there without moving for over 2 hours.)  I was shocked
> and shaken.
>
>
> Two others had arrived at this point, and staff members were
> praying with them.  Suddenly they began weeping uncontrollably,
> and slumped to the floor.  This scene was repeated a dozen times
> in the next few minutes.  It didn't matter who did the praying,
> whenever we asked the Lord, he immediately responded with a
> visible power, and the same manifestations occurred.
>
>> I didn't know whether to be terrified or thrilled, but clearly,
> something completely unusual was going on.
>
>
> A young man cautiously entered the room, and began to tell us
> that he was "just happening" to be scanning the radio dial when
> he heard "something about prayer".  He reported that he was
> immediately overcome with conviction.  Years before, he had
> contemplated going into the ministry, and had even attended a
> couple of years at a Christian College, but he had since strayed
> from God.  As a chill of conviction swept him, he felt God
> suddenly tell him it was now or never.  He drove to the station.
> We prayed with him to receive Christ as Lord, and afterward, he
> too slumped to the floor.
>
>
> One by one they came.  We continued to play praise-oriented
> music, and every hour (sometimes on the half-hour) we'd invite
> people to come.
>
> Fairly early in all this, we ran out of room.  The radio station
> floor was wall to wall bodies... some weeping, some shaking, some
> completely still.  People reported that it was like heavy lead
> apron had been placed over them.  They were unable to get up.
> All they could do was worship God.
>
>
> Fortunately, our offices are inside of the complex at Central
> Assembly, so when the crowd began to grow, we moved across into
> the Church, leaving the radio station literally wall to wall with
> seekers.
>
>
> Some teachers at Indian Christian School had heard what was
> happening, and asked us to pray for certain children they were
> bringing in the room.  As we prayed for the kids, many began to
> shake and fall to the floor.  Some would begin to utter praises
> to God.  Others lay completely immobile for periods of over an
> hour. (If you've ever tried to make a seven year old lay still,
> you know it's a miracle!) A few simply experienced nothing at
> all.
>
>
> By now I was convinced that we were experiencing a bona fide move
> of God. I had read about such manifestation experiences being
> common in the revival  meetings of great men like Jonathan
> Edwards and John Wesley.  I had also read of the great camp
> meeting revivals in the early 1800', where thousands upon
> thousands experienced being "slain", but I never imagined I would
> really live to see it.
>
>
> The crowd continued to grow, and lines began to form.  The power
> of God continued to fall on those coming.  It was almost like
> being in a dream.  I would look up and see our staff members...
> eyes red, faces puffy, and hands trembling, but with a fire in
> their eyes and the power of God upon them.  I couldn't believe it
> was the same people I knew and worked with.  In a matter of
> hours, something we never even dreamed of (much less aspired to )
> was happening.
>
>
> The floor in front of the sanctuary was soon covered with men and
> women, boys and girls.  The aisles began to fill and we were
> pushing aside chairs for more floor space.  Usually, one of our
> staff would "catch" the person as they fell, but on quite a few
> occasions we were caught by surprise and people fell hard on the
> floor.  Frankly, we had NO idea what we were doing. (I'm not sure
> I want to learn!)
>
>
> At some point I looked up and saw a local Baptist Pastor walk in
> the door.  I must confess that my first thought was "Oh Boy...I'm
> in trouble!" While I knew this brother to be a genuine man of
> God, nevertheless I was concerned about how a fundamental,
> no-nonsense Baptist might take all these goings-on. (Besides, I
> didn't have an explanation to offer!) I walked up to greet him.
> He just silently surveyed the room, and with a tone of voice just
> above a whisper said "This... is...God.  For years I've prayed
> for revival... This is God."
>
>
> Within minutes more local pastors began to arrive.  Lutheran,
> Independent, Assembly of God... The word of what was happening
> spread like wildfire.  As  the pastors arrived, they were
> cautious at first, but within just minutes, they would often
> begin to flow in the same ministry.  The crowd was growing and
> pastors began to lay hands on the seekers, where once again the
> power of God would manifest and the seeker would often collapse
> to the ground.
>
>
> It did not seem to matter who did the praying.  This was a
> nameless, faceless, spontaneous move of God.  There were no
> stars, no leaders, and frankly, there was no organization.  (It's
> hard to plan for something you have no idea might happen!)
>
>
> Eventually, word of what was occurring reached Fred Grewe, the
>
> Eventually, word of what was occurring reached Fred Grewe, the
> Melbourne pastor who had brought Randy Clark to the station
> earlier that morning.  He and Randy, along with several other
> Melbourne pastors, jumped into the car and headed down to Vero
> Beach.  At this point, we started broadcasting live from the
> Church.  As the group from Melbourne arrived, more and more
> people also began to show up asking for prayer.  It seemed like
> there were always more than we could get to.
>
>
> Amazingly, unchurched, unsaved people were showing up.  I got a
> fresh glimpse of the power of radio as person after person told
> us "I'm not really a part of any church..." A few were skeptical
> at first, and later found themselves kneeling in profound belief.
>
>
> Sometimes people would rise up, only to frantically announce to
> us that they had been healed of some physical problem.  One
> woman's arthritic hands found relief.  Neck pains, jaw problems,
> stomach disorders and more were all reported to us as healed.
>
>
> We have received at least a dozen verified, credible, reliable
> comments from people who told us that when they switched on the
> radio, they were suddenly, unexpectedly overwhelmed by the
> presence of God (even when they didn't hear us SAY anything).
> Several told us that the manifest presence of God was so strong
> in their cars that they were unable to drive, and were forced to
> pull off the road.
>
>
> The "falling" aspect of this visitation was the most visible
> manifestation, but it was not falling that was important.  What
> was important was the fact that people were rising up with more
> love for God in their hearts than ever before.  They were being
> changed, and their hearts set ablaze. I have lost count of the
> numbers of people who told me of the change God worked in their
> life.
>
>
> It's hard to imagine the impact this has had on our staff.  It
> seems like God has almost given me a new staff, composed entirely
> of men and women to tremendous zeal for God.
>
>
> What is occurring in our local churches is even more amazing.  My
> phone is ringing with the calls of excited pastors.  At least a
> dozen area churches from completely different ends of the
> theological spectrum are already experiencing this powerful move
> in their church.  The leaders of many, many other local
> fellowships have been visiting these churches to "check it out",
> and they too are being touched to "take it back" with them.  It's
> almost like a tidal wave has hit this area of Florida.
>
>
> If you are skeptical, I understand and forgive you.  (I might
> have thrown a letter like this one away just days ago.)  I share
> this only to try and offer a faithful rendition of what has
> really happened.
>
> I only ask that  you remain open to whatever God wants to
> accomplish through you.  Christian history is full of accounts of
> those times when God elected to "visit" His people.  When He has,
> entire nations have sometimes been affected.  I believe you'll
> agree, our nation is ripe for such a revival.  For such a time as
> this, let us look to God with expectancy.
>
>
> With warm regards, I am,
>
>
> Sincerely Yours,
>
>
>
>
>
> Jon Hamilton
>
> General Manager
-----Emacs: 95-Apr-02              (Fundamental)----49%----------------------
>From sdanet  Fri Mar 31 17:04:38 1995
>From: Bille Burdick 
>Subject: Puzzle and Shift (Spiritual Warfare)
>To: sdanet@sdanet.org
>Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 03:22:51 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
>Sender: sdanet

Steve Timm wrote:
> Likewise the history of the deliverance movement is that although
> the specific demons for sins such as "arm pain" may not have existed,
> there were enough real demons around so that when they kept hearing their
> names, they showed up and made themselves felt.

This is an excellent point, Steve.  I and a friend transcribed seminar tapes
of the Spiritual Warfare and Deliverance Ministry (as it was called in SDA
circles) along with tapes of personal experiences of involvement for the
purpose of studying more closely what was being said doctrinally as well as
what was being experienced.  One thing that struck us as we went along was
the way that those involved seemed to be so convinced that the power of God
was being manifested by "forcing the demons to speak".  The mention of
"feelings" that accompanied this revealing of demonic presence was
surprizingly consistant....it was one of extreme peace rather than of
fearfulness as one might expect under such circumstances.  And at times it
seemed as though after a "deliverance" the individual might be more bothered
by temptations in the problem area than before.  Unfortuneately, those
involved usually built this into their theology as evidence that the "foe"
was mighty and continued warfare was needed.....rather than making the
probably more accurate assesment that you have here.

> When I see these activities occuring only in small group meetings,
> which is the case here, I'm reminded of Christ's admonition  "If they
> say, Lo he is in the secret place, go not forth."  If a specific time
> and place is designated for the Holy Spirit to show up and perform,
> is that not using a "secret place" to some extent?
> is that not using a "secret place" to some extent?

This is an interesting parallel that I hadn't thought of before.  But to
extend it a little farther (since according to Garrie Williams it is
expected that these manifestations will not be limited to the small groups,
but that the small group activity is the way to get these manifestations
into the church as a whole), even if (when) they do occur in the larger
church setting, it would still be a "secret place" in the sense in which the
text was speaking, since in the text the "secret place" was being contrasted
with the universal appearance of Christ, as the lightning shineth from east
to west.

> Some have mentioned the spiritual warfare talk which has been heard within
> our own church.  I believe that the average SDA is more likely to have
> seen the writings of Frank Peretti _This Present Darkness_ than any
> of the spiritual warfare stuff from folks like Garrie Williams and others.
> In matters of dealing with the Holy Spirit and associated phenomena the
> real issue is not what the conference says because that is generally
> ignored.  Rather it's that SDA's are hearing it on Christian radio and
> soaking it up.
                                                                                          

You have a good point, though "average SDA" might be different depending on
their age group in this regard.  Another person who has influenced SDA
thought on this is Bob Larson.  SDA's grabbed him up because his position on
rock music matched what they wanted their kids to hear.  This, however it
affected the younger generation, gave him credibility in the eyes of those
opposed to rock music and thus, I think, made a ready market for his books
on spiritual warfare with its attending deliverance ministry.

A couple things to keep in mind regarding this:

1) the term "spiritual warfare" as well as much of the terminology used in
connection with it, has quite different meanings in different segments of
the Christian church.  Some SDA's use it in much the same way as does
"Christian radio" and writers such as Frank Peretti, some use it in a
traditional SDA manner, and many use it because they have heard it from
both groups and don't realize there are differences of meaning.

2) The term Spiritual Warfare may be a general term or a specific term.  By
that I mean that it may be an umbrella term which *includes* Deliverance
Ministry, it may be used to distinguish the believers' spiritual activities
from deliverance activities, it may mean only the believers' spiritual
activities, and it may have quite different "spiritual activities" in mind,
depending on who is using the term.

> As you see my posts flip from side to side on this issue, it may seem
> like I'm being tossed about by every wind of doctrine.  That's not
> the case here... ther's precious little doctrine on either side.
> It's the winds of strife and discord that are the most threatening
> right now.

When the winds of discord are blowing they will always be more prominent
than the doctrinal beliefs which cause them to blow.  When you say "precious
little doctrine on either side" I assume that you mean there is little being
discussed at the doctrinal level.  There are definitely doctrinal issues
involved, but it seems to be the nature of anything involving Spiritual
Warfare or actions of the Holy Spirit that the doctrines and presuppositions
supporting the activities are seldom openly addressed.

> I'm glad God is in charge because I certainly wouldn't
> want to be at this time.  In the midst of all of this, the Lord is good
> and I still hope for reconciliation.  (And nobody from Albany is on the
> net, otherwise I never would have posted this.)

Reconciliation of everyone to everyone is probably too much to hope for, but
your efforts bent in that direction will be worth the distress you are
experiencing over this if only a few are reconciled to each other and if
this experience results in more people coming to grips with and
understanding the issues involved.


--
Bille Burdick  (bburdick@southern.edu)
McKee Library, 238-2796
^Z
--
Bille Burdick                                                 615-472-5176
McDonald TN 37353                                  (bburdick@southern.edu)
>From sdanet  Tue Apr 11 17:39:48 1995
>From: Bille Burdick 
>Subject: Re: Albany Revival & Sister White
>To: sdanet@jill.sdanet.org
>Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 01:17:17 -0400 (EDT)
In-Reply->To: <950409230100_77649686@aol.com> from "SDA Net" at Apr 9, 95 11:01\
:03 pm
MIME-Version: 1.0
>Sender: sdanet

Susan Balcerzak wrote:

> This is an excerpt from Selected Messages, Book Two, Chapter 2, p. 26
> entitled:
>
>                "EARLY FANATICISM TO BE REPEATED"
>
> "Bodily Demonstrations Not Demanded
>
>     True religion does not demand great bodily demonstrations . . . These are
> no evidence of the presence of the Spirit of God.  In 1843 and 1844 we were
> called to meet just such fanaticism.  Men would say, I have the Holy Spirit
> of God, and they would come into the meeting and roll just like a hoop; and
> because some would not receive this as evidence of the working of the Spirit
> of God, they were looked upon as wicked people.  The Lord sent me into the
> midst of this fanaticism . . . Some would come to me and ask, Why do you not
> join with them?  I said, I have another Leader than this, One who is meek and
> lowly in heart, One who made no such demonstrations as you are making here,
> nor such boasts.  These demonstrations are not of Christ but of the
> devil.---Manuscript 97, 1909."
>
> Oh how the truth of this message and others like it rings clear in the church
> today!

I'm a little confused by your last line here.  Because of your title line, I
assume you are seeing this as being against the "manifestations" that are
being experienced at Albany and to a greater extent by those whom the Albany
people are admiring.  However....."rings clear"...????  I am *not* hearing
any "clear" warnings against it in our church today.  I am, instead, hearing
and reading things which seem to encourage people to seek some kind of overt
supernatural taking over of the motor control of their bodies as a sign that
the "holy spirit" is working amongst them.

I agree with what I think is the intent of your post, and disagree that the
supernatural should either be sought or welcomed in manifestations such as
are occuring.....and I think they are more likely of hysteric or unholy
spirit source than of holy spirit....but I don't hear a lot of voices
speaking out against them.

--
Bille Burdick                                                 615-472-5176
--
Bille Burdick                                                 615-472-5176
McDonald TN 37353                                  (bburdick@southern.edu)
                                                                                          
>From sdanet  Mon Apr 10 18:52:47 1995
>From: sdanet (SDA Net)
        (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA090522863; Sun, 9 Apr 1995 23:01:03 -0400
>Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 23:01:03 -0400
>To: sdanet@jill.sdanet.org
>Subject: Re:Albany Revival & Sister White
>Sender: sdanet

This is an excerpt from Selected Messages, Book Two, Chapter 2, p. 26
entitled:

               "EARLY FANATICISM TO BE REPEATED"

"Bodily Demonstrations Not Demanded

    True religion does not demand great bodily demonstrations . . . These are
    True religion does not demand great bodily demonstrations . . . These are
no evidence of the presence of the Spirit of God.  In 1843 and 1844 we were
called to meet just such fanaticism.  Men would say, I have the Holy Spirit
of God, and they would come into the meeting and roll just like a hoop; and
because some would not receive this as evidence of the working of the Spirit
of God, they were looked upon as wicked people.  The Lord sent me into the
midst of this fanaticism . . . Some would come to me and ask, Why do you not
join with them?  I said, I have another Leader than this, One who is meek and
lowly in heart, One who made no such demonstrations as you are making here,
nor such boasts.  These demonstrations are not of Christ but of the
devil.---Manuscript 97, 1909."


Oh how the truth of this message and others like it rings clear in the church
today!

Susan Balcerzak
(RTAboss@aol.com)
>From sdanet  Mon Apr 10 18:35:27 1995
>From: Bille Burdick 
>Subject: Re: Albany Revival
>To: sdanet@jill.sdanet.org
>Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 17:32:57 -0400 (EDT)
In-Reply->To: <199504091926.PAA10698@jill.sdanet.org> from "SDA Net" at Apr 9, \
95 03:26:09 pm
MIME-Version: 1.0
>Sender: sdanet

Steve Timm wrote:
> This week at our church all talk of revival was put aside as we mourned the
> passing of Debbie Bock. . . .
> Certainly a church that has become divided in some respects was unified
> in showing support and sympathy to this family.  They will need our
> continued prayers and support.

We mourn with you and the family of Debbie and pray that God will heal the
brokenness of those who are left....

> Bille's point about Garrie Williams' book should not be overlooked.  It
> is one of the devotional books for this year and is entitled "Welcome
> Holy Spirit".  Some of the theology bears a strange resemblance to
> the theology (or lack thereof) in Benny Hinn's book by the same title.
> Yet Garrie Williams was able to get this published by the regular book
> committee at times when such stalwarts as Jack Blanco and G. Edward Reid
> \could not.

I have not read Benny Hinn's book...but the theology that I have noticed
in Garrie Williams' book gives evidence by its content that it comes from
those branches of Pentecostalism called by various titles, among which are
the Word-Faith Movement, The Third Wave of the Holy Spirit, the Signs and
Wonders Movement, and Power Evangelism.  Williams quotes specific leaders
in the movements, including Paul Younggi Cho and John Wimber.

Garrie Williams is a key player in introducing this theology to Adventism,
but he obviously could not do so if he were alone in his theology...which
is what I think you are aluding to above.  In the last few months, I
have spent considerable time trying to comprehend just how wide the
foundation has been laid...and at this point, I am concluding it is
extremely broad and solid.  A few items for your consideration:

For years, Peter Wagner has been looked upon as a church growth guru.  We
have been following his models, including those based upon spiritual gifts
introduced via small group ministries.  He it is who coined the phrase
"Third Wave of the Holy Spirit" and his recent books are on Power
Evangelism and are heavily slanted to Spiritual Warfare and its undergirding
theology.  But he has been heading in this direction for some time.

I have before me a book on this subject ca 1979.  I see in this book several
characteristics of what we are seeing...for example, a characterization and
a seeking for spiritual gifts and the experiences they bring beyond what is
described in scripture.  In identifying spiritual gifts he moves not only
beyond the passages specifically listing gifts, but beyond the bible itself
to name specific "gifts of the Spirit".  While much of his material is valid
and in line with scripture and he identifies himself as a non charismatic...
yet he defends charismatic beliefs and puts an emphasis on gifts that is
beyond that of scripture.

> I think it illustrates that most charismatic SDA pastors, and yes there are
> others besides Eoin Giller, have learned a way to talk that can make their
> theology acceptable to Adventists who are wondering about it, but then
> they may in other settings give a different type of teachings to those who
> prefer to chase after signs and wonders.

This implies that some are deliberately deceptive...and probably that is
true.  But there is a more subtle explanation for what is happening.  What I
have seen and experienced is sda leaders who lecture on topics dear to
Adventism with vocabulary that is specifically Adventist....the outpouring
of the Spirit in the Latter Rain, and developing an "effective prayer life"
for example....but illustrating their points by using experiential
anectdotes which in fact are drawn from non-sda sources and which are based
on non-sda theology.  For example in a recent seminar I attended, examples
of how to pray were drawn from the experience of Paul Younggi Cho, who
teaches a meta-physical East/West blend of Christian concepts and Eastern
and/or New Age/New Thought principles in the areas of prayer, visualization,
faith, etc.

There is also no doubt that our church, as well as the world around us, has
been in recent years fanning the yearning for the unmediated, direct contact
with supernatural signs and wonders.  There are enough "miracles" happening
in various segments of society, in all flavors of religion, so that it is
attracting the attention of even the secular press.  There is also enough
specific doctrine being taught through some of these miracles that is in
direct conflict with plain teachings of scripture so we cannot say that it
is all of God.

My contention is that if we seek the Wind in a time when all kinds of winds
are blowing...we can expect to reap the Whirlwind if we continue to seek
without close attention to the Word of God as recorded in Scripture.

--
Bille Burdick                                                 615-472-5176
McDonald TN 37353                                  (bburdick@southern.edu)
                                                                                            >Date: Sat, 08 Apr 1995 09:31:08 -1000
>To: sdanet@jill.sdanet.org
>From: kenpo@netspace.net.au (Ken Powell)
>Subject: Re: The Albany revival (fwd)
>Sender: sdanet

Arto Wrote:
...
>2) To be open to change my interpretation according to my experiences.
>Sometimes my (or my friends/trusted people) experiences give a new
>interpretation to chapters/verses in the Bible. I want to be open enough
>of accepting the new interpretation instead of rejecting my experiences as
>unbiblical.

I have seen this in practice. A person I knew beleived certain things in the
Bible were absolutely impossible so chose to ignore them. Later he
experienced a taste of some of these things. Then he changed his ideas about
those matters in the scripture. This is a very natural way to judge filtered
by our experience. But it isn't necessarily valid. Our experience may or may
not happen to predispose us to receive some message from the Bible. But this
shouldn't be the final arbiter. We should rather judge our experience by
what we find in the Bible.
Peace,
Ken
//------------------------------------------------------------------------
//  Ken Powell                                kenpo@netspace.net.au
/   Melbourne Australia
                                                                             
>From sdanet  Sat Apr 15 19:26:20 1995
>From: sdanet (SDA Net)
        (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA154428454; Fri, 14 Apr 1995 21:14:14 -0400
>Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 21:14:14 -0400
>To: sdanet@jill.sdanet.org
>Subject: Re: The Albany revival
>Sender: sdanet

These are all questions I have contemplated from time to time as I see the
lovely Christian lives of charismatic relatives and the fruits of the Spirit
they have. I wonder what I have to give them other than the interpretations
of certain beasts in Revelation. May God show me. I have also seen the
manifestation of "slain in the Spirit" at an inter-denominational retreat. It
did seem to bring healing (psychological) to some present, especially the
elderly and often ignored as they were gently held by others.  I ask myself
just suppose we were rejecting the Spirit and church bureacracy were in the
way?  I do know there is a danger of fanaticism in these things or
emotionalism. But our Lord will watch over us if we keep close to Him and ask
for guidance. We just don't have all the answers. Nor can we say these things
are unbiblical if done in order.
                                                                                  
From sdanet  Sat Apr 15 18:46:59 1995
>From: Bille Burdick 
>Subject: Re: Albany Revival & Sister White
>To: sdanet@jill.sdanet.org
>Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 22:09:50 -0400 (EDT)
In-Reply->To: <9504130404.AA07855@firefly.prairienet.org> from "Paul Beedle" at\
 Apr 12, 95 11:04:01 pm
MIME-Version: 1.0
>Sender: sdanet

Paul Beedle wrote:
> bille writes:
>>any "clear" warnings against it in our church today.  I am, instead, hearing
>>and reading things which seem to encourage people to seek some kind of overt
>>supernatural taking over of the motor control of their bodies as a sign that
>>the "holy spirit" is working amongst them.
>
> bille, where are you reading things "to encourage people to seek some kind
> of overt supernatural taking over of the motor control of their bodies as
> a sign..." ?  i have not read it here among the sda's on this net.  if this
> is not what you are saying, my apologies; however, it does sound that way.

Paul, Ursa is (or was before she became enthralled by the "manifestations")
an SDA...her fiance, Arto, is not an SDA, however, he more clearly described
for us just what was meant by "manifestations".  Steve told us that at
Albany, though they had not experienced the "holy laughter", some of them
had "fallen down".  Of course no one is putting it as bluntly as I put it in
that paragraph.  However, when the writer of the devotional book points us
to John Wimber's Vinyard... which is the leader in such things, it seems to
me this is a type of encouragement to "go and do likewise".

> i agree that we should not be seeking these "signs".  yet we should be seekin\
g
> the Holy spirit, and if it takes a "motor" form, let us not grieve it.  where
> are you reading and hearing such things in the sda church?  i hear far, far,
> far more to encourage people to attribute such manifestations to the devil.

I used to hear such warnings....and if you are still hearing them I am glad
to hear of it.  I have heard hardly any in recent years...that was my main
point.  If there is not a biblical basis for assuming that it will take a
"motor" form.....then what cause do we have to attribute such activity to
the Holy Spirit?  And if the manifestations are not in keeping with the
dignity and majesty of the Holy Spirit....wouldn't we "grieve" Him more by
attributing them to Him than we would by speaking against them?

> it is so safe for us to give to just one person in our church all the overt
> gifts of the Holy spirit; that way we not only don't have to have them, we
> can encourage one another not to even seek these gifts.

I don't thing the emphasis we are currently placing on "spiritual gifts" is
healthy.  I am completely convinced that the emphasis being placed on them
in many Charismatic churches is not biblical and is dangerous.  When I see
those leaders recommended to our people, I cannot help but be extremely
concerned.

> i agree, in general, with your spirit of battle.  we *must* battle the devil.
> nowhere in the bible does it say that a person must have some outward "sign"
> that the Holy spirit is controlling you.  i will battle with you against
> such heresies.  i will battle anyone who tries to coerce another christian
> into believing that they have to have some physical/emotional experience
> to prove that they are converted.

I don't like the term "battle".  That is the terminology of the "Spiritual
Warfare" extremism which is part of the "Third Wave".  And it is not
coersion I fear so much as it is infiltration and promulgation of
Charismatic concepts dressed in biblical terms.

> yet let us not *deny* that physical manifestations can occur.  is ellen white
> the last prophet on this earth?  can devils be cast out?  can the withered
> arm be restored?  can the dead be raised?  i believe that the true miracles
> from God can still be with us today.
                                                                                   

Who will do these miracles?  Will God appoint an exorcist?  Will he send
another Christ to heal a withered arm?  Do you really expect someone to be
given power to raise the dead?  There is a difference in God working
miracles among us and in Him appointing a miracle worker to live and work
among us.  However, Scripture tells of miracles being wrought in the last
days that are the acts of the evil one.  If God were also to work this type
of miracles, how would we keep from being confused and deceived by the ones
performed by Satan?

All these questions and more are addressed in the book, _Charismatic Chaos_
by John MacArthur.  Have you read it yet?  I hate to sound like a broken
record....but I'm going to keep "nagging" till some of you start saying...
OK...OKay...enough already....I've read it, I've read it!   

--
Bille Burdick                                                 615-472-5176
McDonald TN 37353                                  (bburdick@southern.edu)
                                                                           

>From sdanet  Thu Apr 13 17:55:41 1995
>From: sdanet (SDA Net)
        (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA032006515; Thu, 13 Apr 1995 14:08:35 -0400
>Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 14:08:35 -0400
>To: sdanet@jill.sdanet.org
>Subject: Re:Albany Revival & Sister White
>Sender: sdanet

Warnings of similar events are found in the first 50 pages of Selected
Messages, volume two.

There is danger of those in our ranks making a mistake in regard to receiving
the Holy Ghost.  Many suppose an emotion or a rapture of feeling to be an
evidence of the presence of the Holy Spirit. --Letter 105, 1900.

Mere noise and shouting are no evidence of sanctification, or the descent of
the Holy Spirit.  --"General Conference Bulletin" April 23, 1901.

The things you have described as taking place in Indiana, the Lord has shown
me would take place just before the close of probation.  Every uncouth thing
will be demonstrated. ... And this is called the moving of the Holy Spirit.
... The Holy Spirit never reveals itself in such methods, in such a bedlam of
noise.  This is an invention of Satan. ... I was instructed to say that at
these demonstrations demons in the form of men are present...  Those things
which have been in the past will be in the future.  --Letter 132, 1900.

Has the Berlin wall come down, where is the USSR, are hands reaching across
the gulf,  is the SOP being rejected, are men lovers of themselves, is there
more natural disaster, is the US moving toward a major financial crisis, is
Congress moving to change the constitution, has the Christian Colation become
a political power?  Is probations' door creaking?

Will the counterfeit revival occur before or after the true outpouring of the
Holy Spirit?  Are the things described in 2SM starting to happen?

Larry Johnson


bille writes:

>any "clear" warnings against it in our church today.  I am, instead, hearing
>and reading things which seem to encourage people to seek some kind of overt
>supernatural taking over of the motor control of their bodies as a sign that
>the "holy spirit" is working amongst them.
>

bille, where are you reading things "to encourage people to seek some kind
of overt supernatural taking over of the motor control of their bodies as
a sign..." ?  i have not read it here among the sda's on this net.  if this
is not what you are saying, my apologies; however, it does sound that way.

i agree that we should not be seeking these "signs".  yet we should be seeking
the Holy spirit, and if it takes a "motor" form, let us not grieve it.  where
are you reading and hearing such things in the sda church?  i hear far, far,
far more to encourage people to attribute such manifestations to the devil.

it is so safe for us to give to just one person in our church all the overt
gifts of the Holy spirit; that way we not only don't have to have them, we
can encourage one another not to even seek these gifts.

i agree, in general, with your spirit of battle.  we *must* battle the devil.
nowhere in the bible does it say that a person must have some outward "sign"
that the Holy spirit is controlling you.  i will battle with you against
such heresies.  i will battle anyone who tries to coerce another christian
into believing that they have to have some physical/emotional experience
to prove that they are converted.

the "earthquake, fire and flood" is truly in many places, and people are
the "earthquake, fire and flood" is truly in many places, and people are
rushing after them, and they miss the "still small voice."  yes indeed, this
is happening and we must tune our ears to "hear what the Spirit is saying."

yet let us not *deny* that physical manifestations can occur.  is ellen white
the last prophet on this earth?  can devils be cast out?  can the withered
arm be restored?  can the dead be raised?  i believe that the true miracles
from God can still be with us today.

let us avoid manifestations that are inherently selfish.  God seems to work
not for "proof" or for "pleasure", but for the furtherance of the gospel and
His message that is present truth.



paul beedle
>From: "STEVEN A. CHARBONNEAU " 
>Subject: Re: Albany
>To: Fulop Mark 
cc: sdanet@jill.sdanet.org
In-Reply->To: 
MIME-Version: 1.0
>Sender: sdanet

Mark,

Thank you very much for your accurate and timely observations regarding
the situation in Albany.

The world of SDAism may not be quite as objective as you present it, but
it won't serve any of us any better to assume the worst.

Steve Charbonneau
Boulder, CO
>From sdanet  Wed Apr 19 16:40:23 1995
>Date: 18 Apr 1995 15:53:32 U
>From: "Fulop Mark" 
>Subject: re Albany [2]
>To: sdanet@jill.sdanet.org
>Sender: sdanet

Steve,
you wrote:

>The1 yr leave of absernce, as Mark suggested, is indeed to give the pastor
>a chance to sort all this out in his own mind.  At the present time,
however, >it seems pretty clear to him and the other members involved, and a
reversal
>of that position is unlikely.

I have seen this before.  A pastor given the option of a leave basically
said, my mind is made up.  Period.  And another year of study won't change my
mind.... so I will go:  1) start another church (unlikely), 2) sell insurance
or 3) sell real estate.

I really hope that the pastor in this case would consider seriously the
conference offer.  Note that in my last post I was careful not to imply that
the leave was intended to change the pastors mind but to think through and
ariculate clearly his convictions.  In that way, he can add value to the
church regardless of his orthodoxy according to the brethren.

Of course the brethren want this wandering sheep to return to the fold, but
this pastor is his own man, called with what he believes is a divine
conviction.  It is now time for him to possibly go into the wilderness and
prove his conviction sure.

And then any "off-shoot" might be stronger and the sda proper, might too, be
stronger as a result of his change to dialogue.

_____________________________________________________________________

Mark Fulop                             fulop_mark@mailgw.sdsu.edu
San Diego
>From sdanet  Tue Apr 18 16:33:58 1995
>Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 14:58:42 -0500 (CDT)
>From: Mel Douglass 
>Subject: Re: Albany Revival
>To: SDA Net 
In-Reply->To: <199504161213.IAA05284@jill.sdanet.org>
>Sender: sdanet


On Sun, 16 Apr 1995, SDA Net wrote:

> I don't normally believe in blasting local church problems to the net
> but I do it in this case because I have no alternative.  The net is
> the only family of people I can trust right now.  If anyone has any
> ideas on whether I should use the small space in Spectrum that has
> been offered to me to write about this, please let me know.
>
> Steve Timm

My recommendation is to fax your info to both Spectrum and Adventist
Today.  Both have resources to dig into this further.  They will both be
fair.

Mel Douglass
Houston, TX

>From sdanet  Tue Apr 18 16:31:39 1995
>Date: 17 Apr 1995 09:07:03 U
>From: "Fulop Mark" 
>Subject: Re: Albany
>To: sdanet@jill.sdanet.org
>Sender: sdanet

Steve,

Administratively, the bureaucracy had little choice but to act in Albany.  I
know you knew that.  But as much as I bash the church organization, I really
need to observe a small sentence in your post that could be lost in the
discussion.  You said:

>Giller has also been offered a 1 year leave of absence but it's not clear
what >the alternative would be to taking the leave of absence.

Realize what this means.  The church is basically telling your pastor, "we
value you enough, to give you an entire year, paid, to sort things out in
your mind."  I have seen other cases where such leaves, included relocation
to andrews or another sda college for a more academic and scholastic
opportunity to study.  Some might say this is a way to get "rid of the
problem," but what other employer would offer an employee a year to figure
out whether or not they could continue working for an organization?   A full
year of study might enable your pastor to think the issues through without
distraction and give him an opportunity to articulate his positions and add
value to the church as a whole.  And if he chooses to part ways with the
church (which is most likely the other option if he does not accept the
leave) then perhaps it will be the church's collective loss.


Steve, I have been in polarized churches.  Unfortunately, rationaility is the
first thing sacrificed.  Pronnouncements, counter-pronouncements, printed
materials, political shoving matchs can all make the situation ugly.  Youth
in the church need not to be sheltered from the storm but given a chance to
process their thoughts and feelings in the midst of the storm.  Providing
such a safe environment can go a long way in building a faith.  After all
these youth will still be sitting at the sabbath dinner tables and need
somewhere safe to process the turbulence that they hear as members and
pastors and conference officials are served as the main entrees.

As for broadcasting the problems, it won't help.  Not now, not this way.  As
your pastor continues to grow (as part of the sda church or not) he should
have the opporunity to use various sda forums, including spectrum's, to
instruct, and admonish, and enlighten, which he, I'm sure, believes God
called him to do.

Unfortunately, once the storm is passed and the body count is tallied, and
the other damage assessed, the slow process of rebuilding will begin.
Remember the earthquake in So Cal a year and more ago?  Well in some
neighborhoods, there are still piles of stones and upturned concete.  I am
sure the collective net has, to varous degress, your church on their minds
and in their prayers.

_____________________________________________________________________

Mark Fulop                             fulop_mark@mailgw.sdsu.edu
San Diego

>From sdanet  Tue Apr 18 16:28:41 1995
         with uucp for sdanet@jill.sdanet.org
        (Linux Smail3.1.29.1 #6) id m0s0rNW-00017qC; Mon, 17 Apr 95 07:02 PDT
     id 09TMU003 Mon, 17 Apr 95 06:59:32 -0800
>From: jack.griffith@pods.pacifier.com
Organization: Pacifier Online Data Service
>Date: Mon, 17 Apr 95 06:59:32 -0800
>Subject: ALBANY REVIVAL
>To: sdanet@jill.sdanet.org
>Sender: sdanet


Thank God for your post.  I know that Jesus knows all about your concern.
 One thing you can remember:The Spirit of Christ will give evidence of His
work.  People will love one another.  There will be a spirit of unity.
People will not be easily offended.  The work of His Spirit will cause a
renewal of love among the people.  The work of the LORD is not totally
dependent on administrative functions.  What spirit is manifested among
those who say that they have been filled with the Holy Spirit during the
manifestations of physical actions?
I do not have any comment as to the work of the Holy Spirit in Albany.  I
only wish that God would give to the people in my church the power to give
a witness to the world that would cause Jesus to come sooner.
jack.griffith@pods.pacifier.com

                                                >From sdanet  Mon Apr 17 07:47:42 1995
>Date: Sun, 16 Apr 1995 20:50:18 -400 (EDT)
>From: John Mitchell 
>Subject: Re: Albany Revival
>To: SDA Net 
In-Reply->To: <199504161213.IAA05284@jill.sdanet.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
>Sender: sdanet

Steve,  I will be praying for everyone of you.  This maybe the start of
the shaking in our church.

Your brother in Christ,

JTM, :-)
>From sdanet  Mon Apr 17 07:40:18 1995
>From: Bille Burdick 
>Subject: Re: Albany Revival
>To: sdanet@sdanet.org
>Date: Sun, 16 Apr 1995 15:11:38 -0400 (EDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
>Sender: sdanet

Steve Timm wrote:
> As expected, the New York Conference moved during this week and acted to
> place Dr. Eoin Giller, our pastor, on administrative leave of 30 days
> effective immediately.  Eld. William McNeil of the Atlantic Union
> (Ministerial Sec.) was called in to deliver the bad news this morning
> during the announcement period of the worship service.  Evidently he is
> going to be the lightning rod for all the frustration that has built up
> as well, because he will be with us for the next few weeks until
> we get an interim pastor. . . .

Is this the Union that Albany is a part of?  Did they call McNeil in because
of his position only?  Does he have expertise and knowledge in the issues
involved?

> Immediately after the announcement one of the pastor's supporters gave
> a speech of protest, which was followed by a hideous statement from
> a member of the opposition "I hope they take his credentials away
> and he never is a pastor again."

I would guess that many will be reacting out of their hurt.  It will be
unfortunate if those who have in a sense, "won", do not demonstrate the true
fruit of the Spirit in the way they react.  I would guess that there will be
a direct ratio between the number who leave the church over this and the
attitudes and actions of those who have been opposed.
> Those who have participated in the renewal are deeply shaken, of course.
> Some are still trying to insist that the church and the conference
> confront the issue of whether or not the manifestations are biblical.
> Some are dismayed because the pastor in their view was not given a fair
> hearing, but don't want to use divisive tactics.

I would certainly hope that those on *both* sides insist that the issues
be addressed!  And I would also hope that the issue goes beyond the local
pastor and conference.  There are people recommending just this type of
thing at all levels.  If I were a supporter of the manifestations (which I
am not), I would be more than "dismayed" that something recommended in
print and in seminars is then deemed "wrong" when it is put into action
in a specific location!

> Our church in Albany stands in need of the mercy and forgiveness that
> only God can provide.  Please keep us in your prayers.  The only thing
> I can do right now is try to shelter the youth from the controversy
> that is breaking now and is no doubt going to split families in our church
> unless there is miraculous intervention from God.
Shielding them as much as possible from the tempers and emotional aspects of
controversy is good, of course...but assuming that they are teens or above,
I think they should *not* be shielded from the substance of the theological
issues involved. I think it will be most helpful to them to be encouraged to
discuss and study the biblical teachings that are involved.  A biblical base
for the identity and work of the Holy Spirit, with emphasis on the Spirit's
role in conversion and the fruit of the Spirit, should help stabalize their
thinking.  Also, they need to consider the warnings against false "miracles"
to be expected in the last days.  (Have you made contact with the Alnor's
yet.  I rather suspect they could help a lot in biblical considerations...as
well as give you help in understanding the movement as it is occuring within
the Pentecostal movement at the moment.)

> I don't normally believe in blasting local church problems to the net
> but I do it in this case because I have no alternative.  The net is
> the only family of people I can trust right now.  If anyone has any
> ideas on whether I should use the small space in Spectrum that has
> been offered to me to write about this, please let me know.

I have mixed reactions to a "small space" devoted to this.  I'll two points
against and one for.

Against:

1) My first reaction is to think that Albany should be given more time to
tend to their healing process in private before it is published that widely.

2) It is such a complex subject that it needs a full-scale investigative and
in depth articles written on it rather than just a newsnote...particularly
since the news might tend to focus readers' minds on the controversy between
the conference and the local church rather than on the issues involved.

For:

1) This is not the only place where Adventists are following after the
"Third Wave" and its Vineyard manifestations.  I have not done extensive
research, but I have heard of other locations where either doctrine from
the movement is being presented and/or some small group activity having to
do with the manifestations is occuring.  So if by reporting on the Albany
incident it could prevent the same thing from happening somewhere else, it
incident it could prevent the same thing from happening somewhere else, it
would be good to get something into print as soon as possible.  Even if it
is a small space, I would hope you would point out the conference role on
both sides of the issue.  The pastor and his supporters no doubt used much
"conference supplied" material to get them involved with this in the first
place.

--
Bille Burdick                                                 615-472-5176
McDonald TN 37353                                  (bburdick@southern.edu)
                                                                             
 >From sdanet  Mon Apr 24 18:39:38 1995
>From: Bille Burdick 
>Subject: The Holy Spirit
>To: sdanet@jill.sdanet.org
>Date: Mon, 24 Apr 1995 00:50:37 -0400 (EDT)
In-Reply->To: <9504240207.AA06907@eve.phy.albany.edu> from "steve timm" at Apr \
23, 95 10:07:28 pm
MIME-Version: 1.0
>Sender: sdanet

Steve Timm wrote:

> >So two questions:  1)  are the above extreme behaviors just one end of
> >a continuum slide downhill that began when we first dared to clap in church?

Not unless those who started clapping in church had a doctrine of the holy
spirit that included such extreme and unbiblical behaviors.

> >(or is there a colorful alternative that is a stable and positive end
> >destination that will not lead us to excitement and exit-ment?)

Yes.  We had it in the 60's and 70's in the Jesus revivals.

> >(or ought we really to be moaning and swooning under the anointing during
> >our services and the above are really  good things?)

no....I find no biblical examples for such things....in fact, those who are
leaders in the movement do not even try to base them upon biblical examples.

> >2)  Can we build a logos and ethos of the Holy Spirit that is not
> >a ethos of negation?  We seem to have defined pretty well what are *not*
> >manifestations of the Holy Spirit.  What are some positive manifestations
> >of the Holy Spirit that we can expect to see in our church today?

Producing in our lives the fruit of the Spirit, convicting us of sin,
leading us to repentance and dedication to Christ, giving us courage to
stand for our convictions, enabling us to overcome temptation, guiding our
minds and hearts as we study God's Word to learn His will for our lives.

> >And since these two won't be answered, here's some rhetorical questions
> >to answer:
> >Is there room in SDA theology for tongues of fire, and people _really_
> >getting slain by the Spirit (Ananias and Sapphira), and healings, and
> >raising the dead and people getting struck blind?

Even biblically, there is no record of the tongues of fire experience being
repeated.  That was a once for all time arrival of the Spirit as Jesus had
promised.  Even when the NT tells of others receiving the Spirit...it never
mentions tongues of fire as being part of the phenomena.

I'm not sure what you mean to convey with your play on words, "slain by the
Spirit" as in striking Annanias and Sapphira dead.  It is possible that God
still punishes in a direct way as he did then...but of this I am sure...He
has not and will not appoint a human agent to be an executioner....nor do I
think he will appoint any human agent to wave their hands at, nor push at,
people while the Holy Spirit stands by ready to knock senseless whoever is
pointed at.  And this is, by the way, a common power claimed and
demonstrated by witches, and other practitioners of occult powers!

As to healings....there are biblically described instructions regarding
calling the elders to anoint the sick....but that is not the same as God
appointing a healer...who is "given a healing" to pass on to someone with
that ailment....nor is it a promise that God will physically heal every
sick person who is thus anointed.  The sda church has always practiced
such anointings...but they are not done with public fanfare...nor are
they demanded of God...nor are they expected for everyone so anointed.

If God chooses to raise a dead person to life, I am confident that he can
do so....but I know of no promise that would indicate I should expect God
to give someone a ministry of raising the dead...as for striking someone
blind, outside of Paul, who was temporarily blinded...where is there bible
precedent for expecting the holy spirit to do something like this?

> Well, here in Albany there was room for all that and more.  We had

Are you really saying that someone was raised from the dead and someone
was made blind?

> the type of SDA church where Michelle would have been comfortable.
> Unfortunately she didn't get out to New York to see it before all
> this stuff came grinding to a halt.  And grind to a halt it has.

Or fortunately, depending on whether it was of God or not.

> With the pastor removed, those who have followed this movement are
> disorganized and disillusioned, wondering if and where they went wrong.
> About half of them came to church this week, the other half did not.
> The prayers have changed to prayers for guidance more than prayers
> for vindication.  Due to the grace and mercy of Jesus, the Albany
> revival has not yet become the Albany off-shoot.

It is a relief to know of this change in the prayers.

> I think the message that is coming from on high is that it is all
> right to *think* whatever you please about the Holy Spirit but
> quite another thing to start acting it out.  It's one thing to believe
> that there is magic and supernaturality in SDA'ism, it's another
> thing to act on it.

I assume when you say from "on high" that you mean from the "high"
positions of the church.  And if so, that is precisely the point I have
been trying to make repeatedly.  We are at present a house divided against
itself.  We habituate people to buying the adult devotional book every year,
then we put one out that gives evidence on over half of it's pages of being
based on pentecostal doctrine and/or recommending pentecostal leaders...and
not just *any* pentecostal leaders, but those who are so extreme in their
theology as to be rejected even by a good share of the pentecostal and
charismatic Christian world!  And then, as you say, when someone steps
out and actually follows those leaders, a different level of church
administration steps in and opposes it!

> When I spoke a few posts ago of a magic-denying church, Bille wondered
> if I had grown up in the same church that she had.  I guess I didn't.
> The fact is that there are four million different SDA churches and
> each one of them exists only in each different person's imagination,
> and/or in the emotional baggage and grudges carried by various people.

For 30 years I, along with thousands of other sdas, heard widespread
warnings about the counterfeit miracles that satan would work in the last
days...in a counterfeit revival that would sweep the Christian world as well
as the sda church before the time of the latter rain.  Over the last 20
years those warnings have gradually waned, until there is almost no voice at
all raised to even suggest the *possibility* that there might be an evil
spirit masquerading as an "angel of light".  Who on net other than myself
has dared suggest such a "blasphemous" thought.....that something someone
claimed was from the Holy Spirit might be from some other spirit?!?  What
I cannot understand is how anyone can read scripture's descriptions of the
majesty of God and the Spirit of God, and attribute to that Spirit the
actions that have been described in the articles regarding the so-called
"Toronto Blessing"!

> But in my imaginary view of the church (as I imagine it *is*, not as
> I imagine it *ought to be*) there exist administrators very much like
> the real ones that acted in this instance.  Although they objected
> to a specific practice (Laying on of hands to receive the Holy Spirit),
> their objection was founded in the basic problem that this appeared
> to be a sacrament, and everyone knows SDA's don't have any sacraments.

If you are saying that the objection of the New York Conference and
Atlantic Union were based on the similarity of the laying on of hands
as praciticed by the Vineyard "holy ghost bartenders" as they call
themselves, and by TBN "Faith Healers" to *sacraments*.....what can I
but shake my head...and what can I say except that we have administrators
who have not done their homework!

> The idea that a blessing of the Holy Spirit can be had by being touched
> and prayed for by other specific people who are filled with the
> Holy Spirit (whether that blessing is a healing or the receiving
> of the Holy Spirit) is essentially foreign to Adventism.

The *idea* is not foreign to Adventism...nor is the practice in the
ordinary sense of the phrase "blessing of the Holy Spirit" but the
*practice* as demonstrated by the Vineyard Renewal movement is very
foreign to any rational comparison of the activity of the Holy Spirit
as described in scripture...and I certainly hope and pray that it will
stay foreign to Adventism.

> This is the cold reality of the church as it is.
> My spiritual journey to find the church as it ought to be continues.
> As has now happened twice, I've gotten a church which is just what
> I asked for but not what I wanted.  I have some heavy reading to
> do over the next week.  Look for reports on Richardson's book
> _Speaking in Tongues_, Froom's book _The Coming of the Comforter_,
> and a review of the various literature by Garrie Williams.
>
> Steve Timm

These books will be revealing only as you also understand the vocabulary
and doctrine of those who are being recommended from the world of "The
Third Wave of the Holy Spirit".   I am not familiar with Richardson's
book.  I do know Froom's book...and it was written before the current
pentecostal dictionaries had been formed....so while it will lay a
foundation for the doctrine of the Holy Spirit, it will not directly
address the issues we are facing today.  Garrie Williams *is* familiar
with The Third Wave....he uses its vocabulary, he alludes to its
doctrines, and recommends its practices.  But to recognize them you
will also need to look at the recent works of some of the non-sda
authors whom he recommends....and it will also be helpful to look at
some of the Christian authors from various points of the spectrum of
thought, to see what they have to say about these writers.
                                                                                     
A few suggestions:  From a charismatic, Dan McConnell, _A Different Gospel_,
addressing the Word-Faith Movement, upon which the various healers rest;
a non-charismatic, John MacArthur, in _Charismatic Chaos_ addressing the
activity of the Third Wave as well as a biblical look at the questions of
the work of the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit in the church; a
liberal theologian, Harvey Cox, in _Fire From Heaven_, addresses the
history of pentecostalism, the strains that are being put upon it in
various countries of the world (in particular, Cho's Korean church), and
asks some pointed questions about the future of pentecostalism...and
whether the new forms are truly Christian or not.

--
Bille Burdick                                                 615-472-5176
McDonald TN 37353                                  (bburdick@southern.edu)
                                                                                
This is a post from Janis Walter, with mega-included text deleted.  SCTT
Forwarded message:
> From jewalter@southern.edu Fri Sep  1 00:35:35 1995
> Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 00:36:03 -0400

> From: jewalter@southern.edu (Janis Walter)
> Subject: Re: Albany Revival
>

> >
> >
> >
> Billie:  Another way to look at this situation is from the addiction to "the
> power".  This has been quite a problem in this part of the country since the
> 70's and has involved some very devout SDA's who didn't realize what they
> were getting into.  Emotional pain, physical pain, spiritual pain are all
> problems that lead to addiction.  If one can pray hard enough, command hard
> enough, or study hard enough, they will receive "the power" which puts them
> on a "higher plane" than those who don't "receive healing".  This has been
> an interesting phenomena to observe over the past 25 years.  It is a great
> cause for depression and discouragement that one can "never be good enough"
> to receive God's healing through the promises.  This has been a mindless way
> of being "in control" when one feels out of control because God hasn't seen
> fit to keep us from having illness, disappointment, tragedy, when we have
> tried so hard to "do it right" so that He will "smile on us."  He does heal
> but sometimes it takes several years, like it has for me. There is still
> progress to be made but God has used this experience to get my attention and
> to realize my own powerlessness and my complete need of loving and trusting
> Him and to share the love and acceptance he has given me in a healing way.
> Janis Walter, R.N.
> Psychiatric Nurse
> Specialist Child Sexual Abuse
> Education and Prevention
> Chattanooga, Tn.                                          (615)894-8665
> "Lost is not damned or condemned, it is merely out of place"
>

  To: sdanet@jill.sdanet.org
>Subject: Re: Albany Revival / Germs cause disease
>Sender: sdanet

In a message dated 95-08-31 11:22:42 EDT, you write:

>ndeed, I would hope that it is accepted that bacteria and/or viruses
>cause most diseases. However, what about mental problems, such as
>schizophrenia (sp?) and the mental disease which causes its victims to
>curse uncontrollably (don't know the name)? It is true, that these issues
>are sometimes associated with chemical imbalences and can be medicated.
>
>Is it not possible, that some of these diseases would have been treated
>by Jesus as "Come out of him" miracles rather than "You are healed"
miracles?
>I assume, that when Jesus is quoted, His words are not tainted by the
>opinions and background of the writers.

The mental illnesses mentioned above are almost all associated with a
physiological/neurological basis, hence the effectiveness of certain
medications. Treatment by medication, however, is not without its down side
since nearly all the psychoactive medications have some undesirableside-effects. Ultimately, it is a matter of trade-offs; that is, to avoid the
difficulties of active psychosis the potential or actual side effects are
with their risks. Belief that these illnesses are caused by inhabiting demons
is quaint at the least, but more likely to lead to a dangerous neglect of
appropriate treatment.

The ideas of demonology and mental illness are interesting, however, for
other reasons and there has been much written by many researchers--be warned,
though, the concepts of demons etc. are usually not held to be metaphysical
realities. The concepts are researched as psychological, symbolic, and
archetypal constructs and will likely raise the hackles of some Christians.

Dennis Waite, Ed.D.
Haelan Counseling Center
205 Broadway, Suite A
Niles, Michigan 49120
DenWaite@AOL.COM
>Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 18:01:19 -0400 (EDT)
>From: Brent Hamstra 
>To: SDA Net 
>Subject: RE: Albany Revival
In-Reply-To: <199508302056.QAA02701@jill.sdanet.org>
>Sender: sdanet

On Wed, 30 Aug 1995, Steve Timm wrote:

> I said
>
> (...)
> Hearsay is not necessary in this case... if you read Garrie Williams
> book you will see "Pastor Eoin" mentioned by name several times, at least
> once in connection with casting out a demon.

As I've been reading this book I noticed that some of the ideas expressed
there are a bit out of the mainstream. I try to read it with an open
mind. I think that, for me, at least, it's a bit early to pass judgment,
pro or con, on these "unusual" circumstances.

> Bille mentioned some of the excesses of the Deliverance movement of the
> early 80's.  I observed one in our own church in Michigan where a mother
> tried to exorcise the demon of "arm pain" out of her 6-year-old stepson
> with disastrous results.

That's truly disturbing, as is much of what happens when these movements
go to extremes (which occurs far too often).

> So what is bringing back these ideas now?  We have various people to thank.
> Frank Peretti's book This Present Darkness has to be a big part of the
> revival with its ugly Democratic demons behind every sin.  A couple months
> ago we saw J. Reynolds Hoffman himself crawl out from under his rock on
> SDAnet about the evils of psychology and repressed memory and what have you.

There was something that puzzled me about _This Present Darkness_, but I
couldn't really put a finger on it until I read this statement. It's
true, I think, that demons probably play a role in the temptation
process, but it is strange that, as you pointed out, they were supposed
to be responsible for every bad thing. Not that there isn't a lot of good
to be extracted from the book.
                                                                                       
> Eoin Giller has told me that he has talked to Toppenberg and Ferris,
> also leaders in the movement at the time, but although he was not able
> to show any differentiation of his theology from that of theirs, he
> has not moved to their extremes of practice as yet.  (one of the most confusi\
ng
> things of the whole movement is that nobody will dare speak evil of anyone
> else, even if their philosophy is different).
>
> Steve Timm
>

Wouldn't it then be just a matter of time before the extreme practices
began to appear? I hope it doesn't turn out this way. I'll be thinking of
you as you continue to deal with this sad and confusing situation.

Maranatha,

Brent
                                                                         

>From sdanet  Wed Aug 30 16:10:07 1995
>Date: Tue, 29 Aug 95 16:57:22 EDT
>From: dtonn@Newbridge.COM (Dietmar Tonn)
>To: sdanet@jill.sdanet.org
>Subject: Re: Albany Revival / Germs cause disease
>Sender: sdanet


> The Demonic Possession Theory of disease has enjoyed popularity ever since
> the idea demons came about in the first place.  It is not a stretch to
> imagine why.  When one believes in an animate universe, with omens and
> spirits and what not, it seems only natural that, when one is ill, an
> evil spirit (demon) is at work.  It is completely natural that the
> Demonic Possession Theory of disease would be reflected in the writings
> of the Biblical authors, since these individuals wrote from that
> of the Biblical authors, since these individuals wrote from that
> perspective.  Since we now observe that diseases can usually be reliably
> treated using purely physical assumptions, the DPT has been largely
> rejected in favor of the Germ Theory of disease, which alleges that
> illnesses are caused by bacterial invasions of the body.  Personally,
> I favor the latter theory, but it is interesting to see how it developed
> and triumphed over its predecessor.
>
> -Greg
>
>
>

Indeed, I would hope that it is accepted that bacteria and/or viruses
cause most diseases. However, what about mental problems, such as
schizophrenia (sp?) and the mental disease which causes its victims to
curse uncontrollably (don't know the name)? It is true, that these issues
are sometimes associated with chemical imbalences and can be medicated.

Is it not possible, that some of these diseases would have been treated
by Jesus as "Come out of him" miracles rather than "You are healed" miracles?
I assume, that when Jesus is quoted, His words are not tainted by the
opinions and background of the writers.

I would object to the original quote, which I can't really tell where it
came from.

> > "All terminal illnesses such as AIDS and cancer have a demon associated wit\
h
> > them."

That seems to be going a little far.


Dietmar
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by cc.newcastle.edu.au
>From: chrmd@cc.newcastle.edu.au (Raylene Dyson)
>Subject: Re: Alb. Rev. --layer 2 deception
X-Sender: chrmd@cc.newcastle.edu.au
>To: sdanet@sdanet.org
Message-id: <01HUN3L55O1E92HRSC@cc.newcastle.edu.au>
>Sender: sdanet

Steve quoted Eoin Giller:

>>"All terminal illnesses such as AIDS and cancer have a demon associated with
>>them."
>
.....

Mark Fulop replied:

>If you remember, I was not greatly opposed to what you described as the
>"Albany Revivial."
.....
>Unfortunately, the next step might be to then find a way to get rid of the
>demons and in that case, we need to go back to the SDADigests and pull our
>Bille's posts on the Biblical Research Institute's work on demonology.

So I never felt opposed to the "Albany Revival" either. I'll keep an open
mind for a bit longer to see what more comes of this and the entire
Toronto Blessing.

I've been reading some of what the pro-Toronto Blessing people have been
saying for a couple of years now - and a lot of it looks good.

I've also been reading some of the anti-Toronto Blessing things and
they have a point too. If anyone is interested there is an "anti" web
page, "The Contenders" page, which has a few testimonies which show the
bad side of this movement. Its address is:
        http://webcom.net:80/~bhph95/
One of the testimonies accessible from the page (Nancy Flint) deals
directly with this casting out demons business:
        http://webcom.net:80/~bhph95/flint.htm
I'd love it if some people would read this and let me know what you think.
Do you think _her_ theology is correct? What do you think was really going
on with the demons? And did you think God might have been working through
the leaders anyway - or had they lost him along the way?

Let me know what you think
Raylene
chrmd@cc.newcastle.edu.au
>From sdanet  Tue Aug 29 16:23:25 1995
        (8.6.12/DEI:4.41) id QAA06537; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 16:40:43 -0700
>From: billgr@cco.caltech.edu (Greg Billock)
        (8.6.7/UGCS:4.41) id QAA04650; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 16:40:33 -0700
>Subject: Re: Alb. Rev. --layer 2 deception
>To: sdanet@jill.sdanet.org
>Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 16:40:32 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To:  from "Mark Fulop" at Aug \
28, 95 11:19:10 am
MIME-Version: 1.0
>Sender: sdanet

Mark Fulop:

[...]

> If you remember, I was not greatly opposed to what you described as the
> "Albany Revivial."  I did have concern that the experiential nature of th
> pastor's ministry would lead to a dependence on "experience" and that
> experience can be a at best, a confusing reflection of God's image.   This
> is particularly true when our experience with God dissapoints us (the
> dramatic disappointments are like when a drunk drive kills a 23 year old
> friend of ours or, when we pray for healing and our still uncle dies of
> cancer).  A faith based on experiences will ultimately destroy our faith
> because, life  expereinces do not always (and sometimes not often) match
> the experience that think is representative of God's active presence in our
> lives....
>
> This leads to the second layer of self-deception we must impose to justify
> and sustain an experience based faith.   That is to attribute all bad
> things to satan or a demon.  And it sound like the pastor's new ministry
> has added this second layer of self-deception.
> **Warning:  I am not debating the existance of statan or demons, I am
> simply discussing the mental gymnastics that those basing their faith on
> experience use to attribute all experiences either to God or Satan. **

[... reasoning cheerfully deleted :-)]
Your first paragraph I quoted here caught my eye.  What is our spiritual
experience based on if we are forced to divorce it from experience?  I
assume you are not advocating a complete decoupling here?  What I'd guess
is that it seems too risky to expect God to move in directly observable
ways in our lives.  When we do this, and God doesn't follow through, as
often seems to be the case, then what do we do?  This seems to me to be
a major problem within Christianity.  One escape, as you point out, is
the intense presence of the devil, who is assumed to manipulate everything
and mess things up.  Another is to claim that God is 'testing us' when
he doesn't seem to act.  Another is to say that 'we can never understand
God's ways, and so we can never figure out whether or not he is answering
us; we just have to assume he is doing the Right Thing.'  Another is just
to deny that asking God for things is appropriate at all.

All of these 'outs' are distasteful to me, and this question is one which
has bothered me for some time.  I am reluctant to relegate God to the
realm of the unobservable.  If he is not so relegated, though, it seems
impossible not to anthropomorphise extensively either to suppose Satan
is much more active than God, or to suppose that God is a lot more capricious
than he is usually thought to be.

-Greg
         
>To: sdanet@jill.sdanet.org
>Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 16:18:08 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <199508272059.QAA15367@library.southern.edu> from "Bille Burdick" \
at Aug 27, 95 04:59:37 pm
MIME-Version: 1.0
>Sender: sdanet

Bille Burdick:

> Steve Timm wrote:
> > It has been a while since I gave any updates on the movement which I have
> > discussed as the "Albany Revival."  . . .
>
> Thanks for the update, Steve, I've been wondering how things were going
> in that area.
>
> > One theological gem that caught my interest, inserted without any biblical
> > justification as an aside in the sermon....
> >
> > "All terminal illnesses such as AIDS and cancer have a demon associated wit\
h
> > them."
>
> Strike out the "terminal" and you have the message normally associated
> with "Spiritual Warfare and Deliverance ministry" doctrinal base.  And
> those who really promulgate this do, indeed, support their conclusions
> from scripture.  SDA spiritual warfarers also use the writings of egw
> for support...mighty convincing presentations they weave on the subject,
> also.  I don't, myself buy into their application of their texts, but
> woven together with a bunch of first hand experiences they can be *very*
> convincing to the average listener....and even to some knowledgeable
> persons of a scholarly bent.  It's been done before and no doubt will
> be done again.

The Demonic Possession Theory of disease has enjoyed popularity ever since
the idea demons came about in the first place.  It is not a stretch to
imagine why.  When one believes in an animate universe, with omens and
spirits and what not, it seems only natural that, when one is ill, an
evil spirit (demon) is at work.  It is completely natural that the
Demonic Possession Theory of disease would be reflected in the writings
of the Biblical authors, since these individuals wrote from that
perspective.  Since we now observe that diseases can usually be reliably
treated using purely physical assumptions, the DPT has been largely
rejected in favor of the Germ Theory of disease, which alleges that
illnesses are caused by bacterial invasions of the body.  Personally,
I favor the latter theory, but it is interesting to see how it developed
and triumphed over its predecessor.

-Greg
>From: fulop@mail.sdsu.edu (Mark Fulop)
>Subject: Re: Alb. Rev. --layer 2 deception
Cc: bburdick@library.southern.edu
>Sender: sdanet

Steve,

Thanks for the update on Albany....

>Under the moniker of "Tri-City Ministries", [snip...], he is now advertising a
>"non-denominational Christian fellowship"...

What you describe reminds me of a church I attended in Orlando, FL, back in
the mid 80's.  The church was in the middle of a "Ford type" inquisition
that was pretty ugly ( how ugly you ask?   adults were using the children's
story time  to slam each other)...  Anyway, it led to the dismissal of the
pastor and a number of other members dropped out in protest, etc...  The
ex-pastor attempted to get the same sort of non-denominational fellowship
going (that and getting his real estate license).

I wonder if anyone has every done a study on pastors who get removed from
the ministry to see if there is a pattern of transitioning out.  That is,
do most former pastors try to give a non-denominational ministry a go?  How
many ever succeed?  If there is a pattern.... Hmmmm...  Maybe Ron or some
other social scientist might want to tackle this one as a research project.

>One theological gem that caught my interest, inserted without any biblical
>justification as an aside in the sermon....
>
>"All terminal illnesses such as AIDS and cancer have a demon associated with
>them."

Okay, Steve, does Bille get to now say, see, I told you so?...  My 2 cents...

If you remember, I was not greatly opposed to what you described as the
"Albany Revivial."  I did have concern that the experiential nature of the
pastor's ministry would lead to a dependence on "experience" and that
experience can be a at best, a confusing reflection of God's image.   This
is particularly true when our experience with God dissapoints us (the
dramatic disappointments are like when a drunk drive kills a 23 year old
friend of ours or, when we pray for healing and our still uncle dies of
cancer).  A faith based on experiences will ultimately destroy our faithbecause, life  expereinces do not always (and sometimes not often) match
the experience that think is representative of God's active presence in our
lives....

This leads to the second layer of self-deception we must impose to justify
and sustain an experience based faith.   That is to attribute all bad
things to satan or a demon.  And it sound like the pastor's new ministry
has added this second layer of self-deception.
**Warning:  I am not debating the existance of statan or demons, I am
simply discussing the mental gymnastics that those basing their faith on
experience use to attribute all experiences either to God or Satan. **

The reasoning goes something like this.  All good things come from God
because my experience (tounges, miracles, etc..) confirms that.  But as
life goes on, bad things continue to happen (accidents, cancer, AIDS,
death) and some of these things happen to those who are Christians.  But if
my experience says that God is good but I experience (or see in others) bad
things, then somehow, bad things happen despite the presence of this good
God?  But how can that be?  AHHH! becuase there is this devil.  So, when
good things happen, they come from God, when Bad things happen, they comefrom Satan.   And if the bad things are happening in "good people" then
there must be some mighty powerful evil in the good person or else it would
not happen. Voila, demon possession!...

Unfortunately, the next step might be to then find a way to get rid of the
demons and in that case, we need to go back to the SDADigests and pull our
Bille's posts on the Biblical Research Institute's work on demonology.

Anyway, for what it's worth.

PS.  I have migrated to a new Email system (Qualcomm's Eudora) so please
note my new email address.





____________________________________________
Mark Fulop
fulop@mail.sdsu.edu
>From sdanet  Mon Aug 28 15:38:53 1995
>From: Bille Burdick 
>Subject: Re: Albany Revival
>To: sdanet@jill.sdanet.org
>Date: Sun, 27 Aug 1995 16:59:37 -0400 (EDT)
In-Reply-To: <199508271537.LAA08262@jill.sdanet.org> from "SDA Net" at Aug 27, \
95 11:37:06 am
MIME-Version: 1.0
>Sender: sdanet

Steve Timm wrote:
> It has been a while since I gave any updates on the movement which I have
> discussed as the "Albany Revival."  . . .

Thanks for the update, Steve, I've been wondering how things were going
in that area.

> One theological gem that caught my interest, inserted without any biblical
> justification as an aside in the sermon....
>
> "All terminal illnesses such as AIDS and cancer have a demon associated with
> them."

Strike out the "terminal" and you have the message normally associated
with "Spiritual Warfare and Deliverance ministry" doctrinal base.  And
those who really promulgate this do, indeed, support their conclusions
from scripture.  SDA spiritual warfarers also use the writings of egw
for support...mighty convincing presentations they weave on the subject,
also.  I don't, myself buy into their application of their texts, but
woven together with a bunch of first hand experiences they can be *very*
convincing to the average listener....and even to some knowledgeable
persons of a scholarly bent.  It's been done before and no doubt will
be done again.

It is, on the surface, a rather attractive idea to many...that they can
have control over disease, death, and bothersome sins all by commanding
demons to relinquish control.  Once you *think* about it a while,
especially if it isn't "working".....then it gets pretty scary and
repulsive.  But in the initial fervor, not a lot of people really
think it through calmly and rationally.

--
Bille Burdick                                                 615-472-5176
McDonald TN 37353                                  (bburdick@southern.edu)

                                                                                       
From sdanet  Wed Sep  6 17:28:52 1995
X-Sender: bhall@Direct.CA
>Date: Wed, 06 Sep 1995 04:01:13 -0700
>To: sdanet@jill.sdanet.org
>From: bhall@Direct.CA (Brad Hall)
>Subject: Re: Albany Revival / Germs cause disease
>Sender: sdanet


Dennis Waite wrote:
>The mental illnesses mentioned above are almost all associated with a
>physiological/neurological basis, hence the effectiveness of certain
>medications. Treatment by medication, however, is not without its down side
>since nearly all the psychoactive medications have some undesirable
>side-effects. Ultimately, it is a matter of trade-offs; that is, to avoid the
>difficulties of active psychosis the potential or actual side effects are
>with their risks. Belief that these illnesses are caused by inhabiting demons
>is quaint at the least, but more likely to lead to a dangerous neglect of
>appropriate treatment.
>
>The ideas of demonology and mental illness are interesting, however, for
>other reasons and there has been much written by many researchers--be warned,>though, the concepts of demons etc. are usually not held to be metaphysical
>realities. The concepts are researched as psychological, symbolic, and
>archetypal constructs and will likely raise the hackles of some Christians.


Dennis,

        Alas, it seems, you and I can agree on something (in general terms,
at least).  I just have one comment to add regarding demon possession and
mental illness, though.  But first of all, let me illustrate my enthusiastic
support for the biochemical approach to mental illness.
          I work in a large mental hospital where most of the patients are
long term schizophrenics with a very poor prognosis (after all conventional
treatments have failed).  Yet, I have seen some of the worst cases greatly
improve with some of the more recent medications being introduced into the
marketplace.  For example, Clozaril (clozapine) has done wonders for a few
of our 'worst' patients, of whom many staff, including myself, previously
thought were just too ill, too "disturbed", for too unremittingly long, to
ever get significantly better. However, witnessing the efficacy of recently
introduced drugs like this (and of more recently developed, and until now,
experimental, drugs as well) has changed this hopeless attitude towards some
of the mentally ill (at least in me, anyways).  I truly believe that God, in
His mysterious, infinitely omniscient, way, is blessing mankind in his
efforts to impirically find and develop effective medications to help
relieve illnesses.
        However, I still reserve a place in my mind for the concept of demon
possession.  Firstly, I have problems trying to interpret the "demoniacs" of
Christ's day, in terms of the concept of a (non-supernatural) mental illness
(at least, in terms of mental illness _alone_, that is).  I realize "demon
possession" is also referred to in the Bible in terms of seemingly, obvious
physical disorders, such as deafness ("deaf and dumb spirit", etc.).
However, I submit that such instances may too refer, not to ordinary causes,
but actually to supernatural ones.  Deafness and muteness can exist purely
due to a person's mental state and thus could conceivably be induced and
maintained by a very good hypnotist (not a "clinical" one, I admit);
something not at all incompatible with the idea of being "possessed" by a
will other than one's own.
        Secondly, I've personally experienced some (though few and far
between) patient behaviours that are downright spooky:  For example, once
(during a quiet night shift) a patient suddenly rushed out of his room and
down the corridor towards me, uncannily seeming to address me about
something that in fact had just happened to me (but which I hadn't told
anyone else about yet).  (I had just had a bad experience with a seductive,
but manipulative, worldlywise, and fickle young woman, and I was feeling
very used, disillusioned, and emotionally 'deflated' about it.)  Near the
end of my shift this patient, whom I hadn't met before (I was just relief
staff at that time) came running out of his dorm (ignoring other staff, who
were closer to him) directly towards me, all the while intently shouting at
me, "What did she do to you!? What did she do to you!?"  (The patient was
quickly hustled away by the other staff, who perceived a potential patient
management problem, so unfortunately I didn't get a chance to interact with
this patient then.)

        {Ofcourse, one can glibly argue that this was just a coincidence, or
that my making of the connection here is merely, an unconscious, 'after the
fact',  re-construction, so that my recollection is somehow distorted by my,
then "emotionally preoccupied", imagination.  Or you can creatively
speculate that my countenance could have unconsciously betrayed something
about what I had on my mind, so that this psychotic patient, being in an
altered state of consciousness after all, was (abnormally) acutely
perceptive to such non-verbal (body language) cues, etc. (even though this
patient could not have been able to see my face prior to his launch down the
hallway). But I know what I experienced there, and it was not anywhere
within the bounds of the ordinary (even for a psych. ward) at all.  It was
something I could not make any biopsychosocial sense (let alone, 'common
sense') out of whatsoever. (I could go on with other anecdotes to a similar
effect, but I'll leave off here, as I realize the inherent impossibility,
with anecdotes, of all-inclusively reporting enough of the necessary detail,
so as to compellingly provide in advance for all the potential questions and
doubts a skeptical audience likely/may conceive of.)}

        I'm all for generally viewing mental illness as just that, an
illness (with no supernatural implications whatsoever).  But I have
exegetical difficulty with just 'throwing out', or mythologizing, the
Biblical notion of demon possession; at least in rare cases.  I don't have
much difficulty accomodating the literal, supernatural, notion of demon
possession with modern medical science. And a few of my personal
observations, in dealing with a large population of the most severely
mentally ill in my province (Canadian equivalent of, state), reinforce that.
                                                                                   

God bless,

Brad Hall
bhall@Direct.CA
                 
>From sdanet  Wed Sep  6 17:26:45 1995
>From: sdanet (SDA Net)
>Date: Wed, 6 Sep 1995 08:41:04 -0400
>To: sdanet@jill.sdanet.org
>Subject: Re: Albany Revival
>Sender: sdanet

In a message dated 95-09-05 22:35:30 EDT, Billlie quoted:

>....Haskell describes the Indiana
>camp-meeting as having "an organ, one bass viol, three fiddles, two flutes,
>three tambourines, three horns, and a big bass drum, and perhaps other
>instruments which I have not mentioned. . . . and when they get on a high
>key, you can not hear a word from the congregation in their singing, nor
>hear anything, unless it be shrieks of those who are half insane.  I do not
>think I overdraw it at all."

Hasn't this type of estatic, "enthusiastic" form of religion existed for
millenia? I realize that the concern in this context is a historical
comparison between the Albany Revival and other such movements in the SDA
church, however, such religious expressions, (and usually the underlying
belief structure) has always been around in some form.

I've recently come to believe that this type of belief system and religious
expression comes from a common need/desire/tendency in humanity to attain or
have an altered state of consciousness, to reach out beyond "normal" waking
consciousness to an estatic union with the divine. Attraction to a unified,
oceanic feeling of bliss (or whatever), may have its psychological roots in
the earliest moments of human life (possibly even intrauterine). This
psychological dynamic (since I'm psychologist) is usually ignored or even
disregarded in most discussions of groups espousing heterodoxy and exhibiting
"unusual" behaviors. These corporate psychological/spiritual experiences are
very similar to individual mystical experence yet maintain a different
quality, creating different functions in the believers life.

These types of charismatic and estatic worship/beliefs were fairly common
These types of charismatic and estatic worship/beliefs were fairly common
during the Millerite movement and post-dissapointment years of 1844. There
are even some local court arrest records listing Ellen Harmon's name among
other locals who were arrested for public disturbance. Swooning, fainting,
glorified shouting, etc. were characteristic. By the 1850's however, such
behavior was strongly disapproved and labeled as fanaticism and pretty much
rooted out of SDA belief and worship. In a more civilized SDA church trying
to become more systematic in its theological basis and broaden its
evangelistic appeal such behaviors were undoubtedly viewed as "insane."
Western protestantism in general has been uncomfortable with the mystical and
"magical" thinking of such groups. Yet cults and cult-like groups thrive;
appearing and disappearing like seasonal changes. It would appear that for
many orthodox SDA belief and practice do not fill their "soul-hunger" despite
the many pronouncements of the faithful and satisfied--such seekers keep
looking. It's my feeling this is first a psychological quest that deeply
intertwined with a spiritual quest. (One of my many clinical supervisors said
to me once, "For many people psychological issues must be resolved before
they are capable of spiritual ones." Christ often found his way into the
hearts of those around him by physically healing them--THEN he made his
spiritual appeal. Healing the psyche is just as important.)

The people I've personally known who have become involved in such activities
(if they were origianlly SDA) eventually find these movements
unfulfilling--ie it doesn't ultimately meet the underlying psychological need
or drive. Most have matured spiritually and move on a little more informed
and all the more interested in pursuing spiritual seeking. Obviously, there
are those who do not move on; and even those that do don't give up their
search for their inner pursuit--for humans (for whatever reasons) will always
be engaged in seeking altered states of consciousness, whether it be through
chemicals, thrill sports, mystical pursuits, estatic congregations,
contemplative prayer, or becoming lost in Wagner's operas.

Would anyone care to explore the Albany Revival from a psychological
perspective? My contributions could only be secondary as I've not been
personally involved with the situation.

Dennis Waite, Ed.D.
Haelan Counseling Center
205 Broadway, Suite A
Niles, Michigan
DenWaite@AOL.COM
>From sdanet  Wed Sep  6 16:13:48 1995
>From: Bille Burdick 
>Subject: Re: Albany Revival
>To: sdanet@jill.sdanet.org
>Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 21:06:15 -0400 (EDT)
In-Reply-To: <199509052007.QAA12530@jill.sdanet.org> from "SDA Net" at Sep 5, 9\
5 04:07:04 pm
MIME-Version: 1.0
>Sender: sdanet

Steve Timm wrote:
> My comments on Bille Burdick's post
>
> >In order to understand its
> > comprehensiveness, it must be seen in relationship to the descent into
> > panenthiesm led, not only by Kellogg, but also by Waggoner and Jones.
>
> It's likely that a more careful examination of the record would show
> Waggoner involved, but not Jones.

Waggoner was clearly the leader, and developed the theology in much more
detail than did either Jones or even Kellogg.  But Jones was right there in
harmony with them.  Jones' actually bears more resemblance to New Thought
in his phraseology and logic where Waggoner is more explicitly
panentheistic, but the metaphysics behind them is very similar.  Actually,
there were many who were involved to some extent.  Prescott, for instance,
was a supporter up until shortly before the crisis meeting in 1904, or
about that time, but he yielded to discussions with Daniell's and White,
and broke ranks in book committee with those favoring Kellogg's book.
Fifield and Luther Warren were both supporters of panentheism...and both
left to join with the Seventh-day Baptists.  Southerland and DeGraw both
urged the ideas on their science teachers while at EMC, but seemingly
dropped them for the most part.  I don't think there was much at Madison
once they moved down there.  Paulson, of course, was associated with
Kellogg, but I think he too recovered and turned from it.

> I had not heard the physical perfection stuff and Waggoner/Jones mentioned
> together before. Would be interested in hearing more on this.

I don't have time to pull a lot together.  Bert Holoviak is actually the
best source for all of this.  I have some of his early papers, but I'm sure
he has refined them much more by now.  Original sources include the GC Daily
Bulletins for the years between 1891 and 1901...especially the 1897 and 1899
ones.  Jones' series of Review editorials 1898/9 on Righteousness by Faith
sounds very similar both to New Thought metaphysics and to the Word/Faith
Movement that can be traced back to Boston and Trine of New Thought fame.

> This is quite close to the idea of "manifest sons of God" which is in
> various of the renewal movements nowadays.

I had heard this phrase before, but hadn't known just what was meant by it.
Maybe you, or someone who is familiar with it could describe it a little
more.ore.

>>> The only thing they
>>> had that we don't is the big band with the drums and the horns and what-not\
.

> Careful:   that is what I said... *they* had it in their day, in the
> current manifestation in Albany there is no such band, nor any music
> playing at all.  Also, Haskell is the source I thought I remembered
> referring to the "crossing the Jordan" phenomena.

Thanks for correcting me...I had the antecedents mixed up....sorry.
I didn't see that in the material I went through recently...but I don't have
complete files on him, so that doesn't mean it isn't him.  Did you see it in
some original materials, or in a book or paper?

--
Bille Burdick                                                 615-472-5176
McDonald TN 37353                                  (bburdick@southern.edu)


>From sdanet  Tue Sep  5 15:56:28 1995
>From: Bille Burdick 
>Subject: Re: Albany Revival
>To: sdanet@jill.sdanet.org
>Date: Sun, 3 Sep 1995 11:47:22 -0400 (EDT)
In-Reply-To: <199509012119.RAA04854@jill.sdanet.org> from "SDA Net" at Sep 1, 9\
5 05:19:03 pm
MIME-Version: 1.0
>Sender: sdanet

Steve Timm wrote:
> Bille's comments about "translation faith" brought a couple thoughts to mind.
> I had read quite extensively the stuff about the "holy flesh" movement
> but I had not heard the part before that they felt they were immune
> to disease, or at least ought to be.  My reading indicated that when they
> recieved this so-called "translation faith" they believed that they could
> no longer sin and any effects of sinful nature were no more in their lives.

This weekend, I reviewed some of the material in my files on this.  I was a
little surprised to see how wide a range of doctrines was impacted by the
"translation faith" teachings...and how much they spread beyond the "holy
flesh" movement led by Donnell in Indiana.  In order to understand its
comprehensiveness, it must be seen in relationship to the descent into
panenthiesm led, not only by Kellogg, but also by Waggoner and Jones.  The
relationship with Christ entered into at Justification was a literal
indwelling rather than an "indwelling" of the Spirit by faith.  Christ
"incarnate within them as he was within Jesus" then lived the same life
of perfect obedience which the divine Christ had lived in the human Jesus.
When they got to this state, then they were sealed, and as evidence of the
sealing they would be physically healed of all defects.  This sealing was
to be accomplished before some arbitrarily imposed "close of probation"
time...which would come first for those who were thus "sealed"...at which
time they would be a "perfect church" and could convert the world.

Other terms used were "born sons of God" as contrasted with "adopted sons"..
"Adopted sons" meaning those who did not have "translation faith" but would
have to go to heaven via the "underground railway"...ie. those who accepted
Christ for salvation but did not become perfected enough to be translated.
(Dave will recognize a rather distorted version of the Calvinist
"perseverance of the saints"...where one *cannot* lose his standing with God
after once accepting Justification....however, one that is built on the very
shaky ground of man's achievement (even though *called* Christ's achievement
*in* the person) rather than on the basis of what Christ has done *for* the
person in his own life and death on the Cross.)

This was not all present in every place where the fanaticism spread...but at
it's worst it perverted almost every doctrine...particularly, though not
limited to, the "distinctive" sda doctrines involving the sanctuary, the
investigative judgement, the sealing, the heavenly mediation of Christ, the
close of probation, etc.  Some extended the concept of "healing and
restoration" to the land on which they lived...teaching that the "born sons"
would not have destructive insects or diseases in their fields and crops,
for instance.  Sincere sdas were greatly distressed...Haskell reported that
some actually went insane under the pressure.  Other's feared for their
sanity.  In its own way, it set people up for a "disappointment" second only
to the "Great Disappointment" of 1844, as people left their homes for
campmeeting, expecting to return without the infirmities of old age upon
them, including their hair color...and in some cases even going so far as to
expect new teeth....and having told their neighbors of their expectations
before leaving home, one can imagine the increasing distress as they
attended long prayer services and these changes did not take place.

This, btw, is the background for a rather curious message from EGW saying
that "Those who present the idea that the blind, the deaf, the lame, the
deformed, will not receive the seal of God, ar not speaking words given them
by the Holy Spirit..."

There is not a one-to-one correspondence between the fanaticism that swept
the sda church then and the Spiritual Warfare and Deliverance Ministry
teachings that are working their way into our church at the present time,
but there are entirely too many things in common for me to be comfortable
with the present teachings.

> This "translation faith", like the "Holy Spirit" that has been dispensed arou\
nd
> here, was most often achieved through a process that back then was known
> as "crossing the Jordan", and involved passing out and remaining in a
> trance-like state for some number of minutes.

I seem to vaguely remember the phrase "crossing the Jordan", though not in
connection with the fanaticisms of 1900.  Do you have references for these
acts?

> The only thing they
> had that we don't is the big band with the drums and the horns and what-not.

Oh...don't think they missed this one....Haskell describes the Indiana
camp-meeting as having "an organ, one bass viol, three fiddles, two flutes,
three tambourines, three horns, and a big bass drum, and perhaps other
instruments which I have not mentioned. . . . and when they get on a high
key, you can not hear a word from the congregation in their singing, nor
hear anything, unless it be shrieks of those who are half insane.  I do not
think I overdraw it at all."

> And yes, there  have been some (but by no means all) who view this
> "anointing" they have received as a seal against further sin. . . .

This was definitely a part of the fanaticism of the 1900's and in a sense
that of the Spiritual Warfare and Deliverance Ministry...as they, by
an extension and combination of the ideas of the indwelling of the Spirit,
of Satan's desire to inhabit the temple of God (our mind, as defined by
SW/DM persons), and of the "power" available to "bind Satan", set as an
achievable goal that our minds could be so filled with the Holy Spirit that
Satan (sin) would not be able to gain an entry.

> SDA's are by nature people that are looking for something extra to *do*
> to improve their relationship with God.  So the various physical activities
> that are associated with the charismatic movement have a certain appeal.

Of course, because it is easier to spend time in prayer and commanding
demons than it is in "living a godly life" in an ungodly world.

> Since we have many SDA's who were raised in a fundamentalist tradition,
> and the charismatic movement appeals most strongly to that tradition,
> we can expect that its appeal will continue.  And unless we have more facts
> about the various phenomena going on in different parts of the world,
> we will not be able to form informed opinions on the subject.

And we need to trace the history and follow the out-working of the things
that are going on....then bringing the total package to scripture for
comparison to scripture models.

--
Bille Burdick                                                 615-472-5176
McDonald TN 37353                                  (bburdick@southern.edu)

                                                                            Janis Walter wrote:
>> Billie:
(Which should be "Bille")

>> Another way to look at this situation is from the addiction to "the
>> power".  This has been quite a problem in this part of the country since the
>> 70's and has involved some very devout SDA's who didn't realize what they
>> were getting into.  Emotional pain, physical pain, spiritual pain are all
>> problems that lead to addiction.  If one can pray hard enough, command hard
>> enough, or study hard enough, they will receive "the power" which puts them
>> on a "higher plane" than those who don't "receive healing".  This has been
>> an interesting phenomena to observe over the past 25 years.

Yes, power was very much the key word in the Deliverance ministry...as it
is, actually in the whole Spiritual Warfare movement, which includes such
things as the Word-Faith Movement as well as such practices and buzzwords as
"prayer warriors", "using the Power of Christ to___" (fill in the blanks
with most anything.  It is, perhaps, the equal and opposite error to the one
which over-emphasizes our "power-less-ness" and our passive dependence upon
Christ to do everything *for* us....and I think stems from the same error,
that of underestimating the responsibility and action required of us as
humans in a partnership committment with and to Christ, who does for us what
humans in a partnership committment with and to Christ, who does for us what
we cannot do for ourselves (inner change of character) at the same time that
we put forth genuine effort using the most psychologically and theologically
sound methods of behavior modification to accomplish changes in our outward
behavior.

>> It is a great
>> cause for depression and discouragement that one can "never be good enough"
>> to receive God's healing through the promises.  This has been a mindless way
>> of being "in control" when one feels out of control because God hasn't seen
>> fit to keep us from having illness, disappointment, tragedy, when we have
>> tried so hard to "do it right" so that He will "smile on us."

"Spiritual Warfare" provides an alternative to taking control of our lives
by "taking control" instead of the demons who supposedly are in control...
and with the added bonus for the pious, of giving them a way to control the
lives of others.  This came through very loud and clear, though it was not
quite what the speaker intended to say, one evening after a SW prayer
meeting in which the excorcism of a demon by proxy had occurred (ie, the
person was not present).  Her comment, "Think of the implications...of the
*power* that gives us...." combined with the knowledge of the type of
prayers that were being prayed was one of the factors that caused me to draw
back and take a really long hard look at what was going on.

This same power was being used by ministers and evangelists as a way to
relieve feelings of near clinical depression, and their success (at least
immediate temporary success) was one of the reasons some of them put an
immense amount of pressure on the BRI committee to pronounce their blessing
upon the movement.

--
Bille Burdick                                                 615-472-5176
McDonald TN 37353                                  (bburdick@southern.edu)
                                                                         

                   From: billgr@cco.caltech.edu (Greg Billock)
        (8.6.7/UGCS:4.41) id JAA14274; Thu, 7 Sep 1995 09:40:36 -0700
>Subject: Re: Albany Revival
>To: sdanet@jill.sdanet.org
>Date: Thu, 7 Sep 1995 09:40:35 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <950906084104_92417675@mail04.mail.aol.com> from "SDA Net" at Sep \
6, 95 08:41:04 am
MIME-Version: 1.0
>Sender: sdanet

Dennis Waite:

> Hasn't this type of estatic, "enthusiastic" form of religion existed for
> millenia? I realize that the concern in this context is a historical
> comparison between the Albany Revival and other such movements in the SDA
> church, however, such religious expressions, (and usually the underlying
> belief structure) has always been around in some form.

Charismatic and ecstatic forms of worship have been around as long as
religion, certainly.

> I've recently come to believe that this type of belief system and religious
> expression comes from a common need/desire/tendency in humanity to attain or
> have an altered state of consciousness, to reach out beyond "normal" waking
> consciousness to an estatic union with the divine. Attraction to a unified,
> oceanic feeling of bliss (or whatever), may have its psychological roots in
> the earliest moments of human life (possibly even intrauterine). This
> psychological dynamic (since I'm psychologist) is usually ignored or even
> disregarded in most discussions of groups espousing heterodoxy and exhibiting
> very similar to individual mystical experence yet maintain a different
> quality, creating different functions in the believers life.
>
> intertwined with a spiritual quest. (One of my many clinical supervisors said
[... deleted history of such groups within Adventism]

> Would anyone care to explore the Albany Revival from a psychological
> perspective? My contributions could only be secondary as I've not been
> personally involved with the situation.

I would be interested to see this kind of idea explored.  I've finished
the majority of Fowler's book, "Stages of Faith," and I wonder what
\insights an application of the principles of faith development could
yield.  One place to start may be the recognition that, if the need to
attain an altered consciousness is universal, it certainly expresses in
vastly different ways.  I, for instance, have no interest in such movements.

What could differentiate between the paths people take to satisfy this need?
It seems plausible (and Fowler's book supports) that such movements as
this thrive on people in the 'third stage' of faith development described
by Fowler.  Those in this stage are very concerned with interpersonal
relationships, and coming from a conservative religious background can
give them a picture of God as extremely involved with the world and in
their lives.  Fowler's sample interview is with a woman who, while not
coming from this exact circumstance, comes to see God this way.  The
upshot is that her picture of God fractures--there is the God who directs
and lends authority for action, and the 'rescuer God' who never forsakes
his children.  The first God is never held accountable when things go
wrong, even when undertaken by his guidance.  In these circumstances, the
second God is there to comfort and rescue.

Anyway, this interview suggests to me that this splitting can lead, by
the mechanisms previously suggested here, to movements such as this one.
That is, God is seen as extemely involved in the world, because this is
how Stage 3 people see God, when coming from a conservative religious
perspective.  This involvement squarely confronts the presence of evil,
though, which must be explained (for many people).  This explanation
draws on demonology, etc. in some cases, and can lead to deliverance
type ministries as a result.

Anyway, these are my initial thoughts as to how the theory of faith
development can provide information as to where and why and how such
movements can flourish.

-Greg

>From sdanet  Tue Sep 26 17:33:46 1995
>From: Bille Burdick 
>Subject: Re: Albany Revival
>To: sdanet@jill.sdanet.org
>Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 21:31:42 -0400 (EDT)
In-Reply-To: <199509240304.XAA20213@jill.sdanet.org> from "SDA Net" at Sep 23, \
95 11:03:54 pm
MIME-Version: 1.0
>Sender: sdanet

Steve Timm wrote?

> There haven't been any major innovations in doctrine recently, or
> many people getting slain in the spirit, although one person tried
> unsuccessfully to do so today.

Somehow, I have a real problem with this concept.  I don't recall any
biblical examples of anyone who received the Holy Spirit who "tried" to do
so....as a matter of fact, though, there is the record of a man who tried
unsuccessfully to get it...even offering to pay for it...and he was rebuked
for it.

> The pastor is still putting a lot of
> emphasis on "Rhema" the spoken word of God vs. "Logos", the written
> word of God.

Which, assuming he is giving precedence to the spoken word, is going
contrary to scripture which bids us bring every thing to the test of the
written word.

> We did have the whopper of the day--(the final generation
> ready to meet Christ will be free from physical defect---don't worry, he
> said, I'll explain later.)

I shall be extremely interested in his "explanation"...and especially in who
he gives as authorities.  I suppose many of the group have no idea that this
was part of the fanatical movements within Adventism that were squelched...
or at least people *thought* they were squelched...nearly a century ago.
But....I suppose none of us remember that far back....

>

> This is just another application of the build up one and tear down
> another fallacy that is so prevalent within Adventism.  Law vs. gospel,
> mind vs. spirit, all false dichotomies that do not have to be opposed to
> one another.

Ah yes....the either/or, black/white mentality.....claimed by many to be the
exclusive property of the "fightin' fundies" or the "wooden headed
literalists"....but in fact, is taken by most escapees from those camps and
used as vigerously by the "left" as by the "right"

> But there is something about these people...  some of them
> just turn their mind off just like the pastor says and accept anything
> he says as truth.

Which is one of the most basic definitions of a cult follower....

> Some may wonder...if this guy is so far off the deep end, why do I
> keep going back there.  I wonder myself.

Actually I hadn't....but if you truly are wondering yourself, then I shall
not only wonder but worry.  I can think of good and legitimate reasons for
you to be there....one of which is not curiosity, and another is not just
for something to pass the time of day.  What he is constructing is a cult..
and cults are dangerous from a psychological perspective.  When one is
dealing with a cult that is based around claimed supernatural
manifestations, there is the added danger of tampering with the occult..
whether or not it is dressed in Christian clothes and "worships" on the
"right day".  I have a couple specific concerns....one of which involves
your youth ministry, and how this relates to that.  The other has to do
with the potential spiritual danger there is in investigating supernatural
phenomena...and what precautions you are taking for your own spiritual
safety.

>From sdanet  Mon Sep 25 01:22:31 1995
>Date: Sun, 24 Sep 1995 12:22:27 -0400
X-Sender: jewalter@southern.edu
>To: sdanet@jill.sdanet.org
>From: jewalter@southern.edu (Janis Walter)
>Subject: Re: Albany Revival
>Sender: sdanet

Timm--This sounds like the beginning of another "cult" like the one David
Koresh had.  They blindly accepted anything he said also and look what it
led to!  May God be with you as you monitor this program and protect you
from such an ending.  Thanks.  Janis Walter

>It has been some time since I posted an update on the Albany Revival.
>The non-denominational group which has formed under the leadership
>of Dr. Giller, our former pastor in Albany, continues on apace,
...................


>Date: Fri,  6 Oct 1995 11:25:16 -0400 (EDT)
>From: Sharon Johnston 
>To: sdanet@jill.sdanet.org
>Subject: Re:hands--Timm,Burdick,Billock
Cc:
In-Reply-To: <9510051434.AA16331@edmund>
References: <9510051434.AA16331@edmund>
>Sender: sdanet

Steve Timm does well in describing the ordination conundrum within
Adventism.  He describes two "extremes," both present currently.
    On one hand is the sacramentalization of bureaucracy.  You ask what
happens at the ordination service with its seemingly requisite laying on
of hands.  And, as Steve says, "if we are to understand Elder McClure's
article in the Adventist Review, the answer will be 'nothing at all.'...
 If we would buy into Elder McClure's theory, we must admit what has
actually been the case for years: that the SDA church has made the
pushing of administrative paper into our sacrament."  Others have made
similar points.
    "On the other hand," Steve continues, "as most of you know, in
Albany we have faced a situation where our former pastor was willing to,
and did, lose his job over the issue of laying hands on people and
praying.  Not only did he claim something happened when hands were laid
(namely that the Holy Spirit was given to them), but he claimed that it
was essential for all believers to do so.  To be fair, we must
acknowledge that things in fact *did* happen when these prayers were
prayed, although it has been in much dispute over whether it was from
God or the Devil.  People got healed.  People fell over on the floor."
    Steve has graphically illustrated what is also my concern. This
summarizes the issue effectively:

> These are two extremes of a philosophy, the former of which basically
> denies that a sincere prayer for ordination causes anything to happen,
> the latter of which turns God into a lap-dog to boss around or a drink to
> dispense.

    I want to come back to that paragraph when I conclude this post.
First a few responses to Bille's and Greg's related posts, which alsoFirst a few responses to Bille's and Greg's related posts, which also
made some good points.


Bille's 3-Oct-95 Re: Sligo Ordination - Report was full of good sense.
To avoid too much gushing, I'll not replay and reply to all the
agreeable stuff.  But I didn't miss the post's deliberately ironic
moments.  Delivered in deadpan fashion, they certainly make no secret of
Bille's frustration and disappointment in the SDA Church's current
position and the rate of change.
    I would quibble with an item or two:

> I was reacting to the writings of one who identified the laying on of
> hands as the ordination act....but now we know that isn't so....so I will
> have to retract my assumption that those who deny ordination to women deny
> them the "laying on of hands"....and while I am opposed to a mystical
> understanding of ordination, I am no opposed to a spiritual understanding.

    Help me out here.  What are you meaning by "mystical" and
"spiritual" in this context?  Where do you draw the line?  For you, what
(ideally) is to be going on which is "spiritual" but is in no way
sacramental--which you've also said you aren't?
    You see, I would suggest that the laying on of hands is indeed the
"ordination act"--emphasis on *act*.  It isn't synonymous with
ordination, but it is a necessary and effectual act.  And even if that
particular act isn't embued with magical, inevitable, and irrevocable
powers (and I'm not suggesting it is), nevertheless a sacramentalist
view would hold that some ritualization is part and parcel of the
ordination process.  Again, it wouldn't be a human recognition only or a
communal recognition, but also an avenue for further outpouring of the
Holy Spirit.
    I'm not attempting to get you to agree with me on this point.  But I
want you to see that there's a variety of options between mundane
bureaucratism and the extreme sort of sacramentalism that includes
transubstantiation.
    In short, I'd disagree with you when you say, "Ordination has no
significance for any gender's *service*.


> Paul...it has become obvious, hasn't it, that we have wasted our bandwidth
> by focusing on the doctrine and practice of ordination.  That isn't
even the issue.  The issue is the doctrine called "headship".

We haven't wasted our bandwidth.  But, no question, for Adventists,
confusion about "headship" has been tied up with confusion about
ordination.  It is one of many overlapping issues.  Sorting them out, as
you have, is helpful.


Greg Billock:

> Back when I did a bit of early church history reading on the subject
> (a few months ago), I could have sworn that I read that ordination
> didn't assume epic proportions until a few centuries A.D.  Am I
> remembering wrong?  I fear I'll have to go back and look again...
> It seems, from memory, that local ministers/elders/missionaries
> were just ordained by the local people, and they didn't send to
> Jerusalem for anything.  They might have sent word, if someone
> happened to be going, but then again, maybe not.  This was the
> impression I got.

It may have been a case of "all of the above."  The first decades of
Christianity presented nothing close to a monolythic institution, that's
for sure.  So, while there were strong local and regional initiatives,
the Bible does also document the beginnings of hierarchicalism.  You
seem to be saying that the New Testament hasn't even a hint of anything
about apostolic authority.  I can't reconcile that with, for example,
the pastoral epistles to Timothy and Titus, not to mention many of
Paul's, Peter's and James's comments to individual churches.


> I agree that there is a lot of confusion about ordination in general.
> Personally, I think it should "mean something" besides a step along
> a career path....  If we want to believe that the ritual
> "means something," it seems we must agree that, somewhere, it
> started out as a recognition by unordained people of the special
> gifts of one of their number, after which they just up and ordained
> the person, and that this ordination had as much meaning as any other.

You're assuming that people are doing the ordaining.  How does your
picture change if you assume people are nothing more or less than
effectual agents in the Spirit's empowerment of a person?
ffectual agents in the Spirit's empowerment of a person?


I've often expressed my concern that the ritual of ordination not be
thought of merely as the community's acknowledgment.  This, I wrote
recently, would be a pat on the back symbolized by the laying on of
hands.  Thus, ordination would be merely a social activity.  Greg
wonders:

> You're not saying that people's social practices are necessarily
> orthogonal to spiritual practices, are you?  i.e., that social
> practices have no spiritual "meaning"?

No, I'm not saying that there's no spiritual component to social
interaction.  In fact, I'd say there's a sacramental dimension to the
Church's fellowship.  But vis a vis ordination rituals, I think there's
a much stronger vertical component than is being allowed for by you or
Bille.


> Why don't we stick to a more heuristic view of

> Why don't we stick to a more heuristic view of
> ordination, which is probably all we are entitled to as finite
> deliberators anyway.  Let's consider the rite of ordination as
> a heuristic intended to shadow the "real" ordination of people by
> God....  [O]rdination should be an image of divine bestowal...

Is it a necessary "image"?  Is it required?  Or is it optional?
    You're obviously inclined towards a mere symbolist view of the
sacraments, which to you then wouldn't be sacraments at all.  In
Communion, for example, I lean more towards receptionism or virtualism,
while not writing off the possibility of consubstantiation.  But the
latter is impossible to prove one way or the other, and is certainly not
necessary to still be a sacramentalist.
    Which brings me back to Steve's thought:

> These are two extremes of a philosophy, the former of which basically
> denies that a sincere prayer for ordination causes anything to happen,
> the latter of which turns God into a lap-dog to boss around or a drink to
> dispense.

I repeat myself...
I repeat myself...
    Whether discussing Ordination or Baptism or Communion, here are some
Bible texts we must deal with.
    Acts 8:14 ff--This describes a situation where two apostles are sent
out from Jerusalem.  Believers in Samaria do not receive the Spirit
until the apostles' hands are laid on them.  A fellow tries to buy this
power and is rebuked.  It seams here that the Spirit was the source of
power, but the act was necessary and effectual.  At the same time, it
wasn't a magic trick.
    II Timothy 1:6--Paul reminds Timothy "to rekindle the gift of God
that is within you through the laying on of my hands."
    Hebrews 9 and surrounding chapters--9:22 says, "Without the shedding
of blood there is no forgiveness of sins."  In what way is the shedding
of blood necessary?  It certainly is comprehensible as a symbol.  But is
it necessary?  Let's assume the shedding of Jesus' blood was necessary.
But then what about all the sacrifices before?  They were symbolic,
certainly.  Were they necessary?  Could one have been forgiven without
them?
    If the answer is no, they were not mere symbols, but effectual ones.
 If, on the other hand, they were not a requisite, necessary symbol,
then they were optional--just a real nice visual aid.
  Well, the following verse (Heb. 9:23) speaks of the earthly "copies"
of heavenly realities and says their sprinkling with blood was
"necessary" for their purification.  Yet "it is impossible that the
blood of bulls and goats should take away sins" (10:4).  As at least one
contemporary of the apostles discovered, the power of the Spirit could
not be purchased.  (Thanks, Steve.)
    So we must tread a fine line between mere symbolism and magic.  In
referring to the Old Testament sacramental system, the author of Hebrews
is talking neither about a conceptual model or a talisman.  There's a
middle road.


--Paul Johnston